“They saw their injured country's woe;
The flaming town, the wasted field;
Then rushed to meet the insulting foe;
They took the spear, - but left the shield.”
―Philip Freneau
Wednesday, January 29, 2025
A Concise Summary of Deleuze & Guattari's "Capitalism and Schizophrenia"
Overcoming post-Modernity's Cynicism vis a vis applications of Psychiatry/ Psychology to understand 'Motive/ Desire' of the other/ Other
By Lem's definition -- technology it's a unity of stated task (like "I'm hungry") AND methods and resources AWAILABLE which can be used to solve that task.
Where's magic in it? Dare to explain?
So. In ancient times our predecessor when hungry was taking rock into his not very dexterous arms, and throwed at animal.
Because there was NO other materials and methods.
And our peer today -- coming to McDonalds.
Because they aee everywhere. And working like swiss clocks
/////Again, 1/4. /So? When wine instead of mere water will start gushing from your words?
//You've lost me, but here's a fine Jewish whine... "I wanna go to Florida!"
Like you dunno that story about Jesus turning water into wine.;-p
Meaning is simple -- if only you'd be able to accomplish (or, fake it) something like that -- attention to your person and yiur words count as granted.
//Perhaps you need to switch your brain into "learning" mode and expend a little energy so as to gain another perspective. perhaps your "objective truth" is only an incomplete ergo "partial" one. Perhaps you need to stand in a certain position to grasp its' more complete anamorphosis.
THAT'S IT!!!
And for that I need to find a way to live longer. And be MORE free from everyday chores, to think about such things.
//I've completely lost the context of your first remark, but I'll try and muddle through with a response... \Because you under influence of WRONG philosophy (ideology?) -- that there is separate "natural" and "unnatural" causes. Even though I pointed to it very early in our conversation -- with citing Lem's work. That, where artifical humans was placed into specially built for em virtual reality... which they necessarily took as granted.
I'm not a robot. I assign my own tasks. Some are natural and necessary. MOST (we have learned) are artifical and spurious and intermixed with natural and necessary ones. Why does a baby "suck" (oral phase)? Why does he grasp at things and put them all into his mouth? Why does he stop putting "everything" into his mouth as he ages (having learned that they're inedible, possibly harmful)?
//Evolution it's Anything Goes. Not DWIM (Do What I Mean) machine. //Societies don't "evolve"? That is your judgment as intellectual agent that are part of that society. And of course -- under influence of WRONG phylosophy you feel it better if it "evolves".
I'm no progressive. It evolves in cycles (because of the human desire to "improve" upon the conditions within each 'current' cycle). These changes lead to further changes which eventually collapse of their own weight, restarting the cycle (Jame Joyce, "Finnegans Wake").
Vectors of Movement within these societal/ civilizational "cycles" can be "ORGANized" or "SCHIZoid". Like Neurons, a myelination of planned "lines of flight" improve the speed and efficiency within an organizational process. But it eventually reaches it's "canalized" limit and can no longer cope with added minor changes. It cannot be "improved upon" without abandonment of the neuronal nets and/ repurposing them. And so the "Father" model becomes a SUPEREgo right-hemisphere formation, and another non-father figure is selected for Left hemisphere EGO-Ideal comparison purposes. But all of this is merely a continuation of the "Sentiment Neuron" building process around "The abnihilisation of the etym". It can be Oedipal (ORGANized) or SCHIZoid.
At the societal level, one need only observe the sacred geopmetry duplicated in the Athenian Acropolis, or at Karnak.
Each one represents a "cycle" in human social evolution that reached its' limit. Late Capital is rapidly approaching another one. We can choose to proceed down the now visible path of "artificial and luxurious technofeudalism", or we can abandon the luxury associated technofeudal model, and/ or evolve it into a more "natural and "necessary" 3rd wave prosumer version and associated marketplace. ;P
\While Evolution by itself -- do not care about anybody to evolve. Because Evolution -- NOT an intellectual agent. But process. Have NO POV. And CANNOT produce judjments.;-p
The technofeudal model and the 3rd wave model BOTH have their vested interests. Evolution doesn't care, but one will prove to "better fit" its' proponents in the evolutionary struggle for "persistence" (in the current cycle).
///Technology, are. ;-p //The "magic" bullet.... It's everything that is NOT technology. By Lem's definition -- technology it's a unity of stated task (like "I'm hungry") AND methods and resources AWAILABLE which can be used to solve that task. Where's magic in it? Dare to explain?</i
Competition for access to resources. The "better idea" will win and be adopted.
/So. In ancient times our predecessor when hungry was taking rock into his not very dexterous arms, and throwed at animal. Because there was NO other materials and methods.
Sure there were. Thats how we got bows and arrows.
\And our peer today -- coming to McDonalds. Because they aee everywhere. And working like swiss clocks
So the bow and arrow were better, and early adopters now own the McDonald's franchises.
//Take Jesus as in xample -- if he would do preaching as he did, BUT without miracles and then spectacular death -- would anybody remember him? /.Does he advertise? PT Barnum. \What can be MORE self-advertising... then extravagant and unbelievable story??? Built on the base of most simple desires? Like. You have "I'm hungry". And Abra-Cadabra, Focus-Pocus -- story about Willy Wonka.;-p
Sounds like an Angel Investor pitch at OpenAI....
/////Again, 1/4. /So?
1/4 what?
\When wine instead of mere water will start gushing from your words? //You've lost me, but here's a fine Jewish whine... "I wanna go to Florida!" \Like you dunno that story about Jesus turning water into wine.;-p Meaning is simple -- if only you'd be able to accomplish (or, fake it) something like that -- attention to your person and yiur words count as granted.
So write your 3 minute elevator pitch and go talk to Elon.
//Much like our elites of today are no longer an "avant garde". They've devolved into a fringe-populist bureaucratic kitsch \That's just you who " evolved" to see it. ;-)
//Perhaps you need to switch your brain into "learning" mode and expend a little energy so as to gain another perspective. perhaps your "objective truth" is only an incomplete ergo "partial" one. Perhaps you need to stand in a certain position to grasp its' more complete anamorphosis. \THAT'S IT!!! And for that I need to find a way to live longer. And be MORE free from everyday chores, to think about such things. See? Technology! The Task AND Methods and resources AVAILABLE.
So all "TASKS" are "NATURALLY" necessary and not "artificial"? Please. And every "TASK" has methods and resources available necessary to achieve it? @@
Shakespeare, "Hamlet":
"How all occasions do inform against me And spur my dull revenge. What is a man If his chief good and market of his time Be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more. Sure He that made us with such large discourse, Looking before and after, gave us not That capability and godlike reason To fust in us unused. Now whether it be Bestial oblivion or some craven scruple Of thinking too precisely on th’ event (A thought which, quartered, hath but one part wisdom And ever three parts coward), I do not know Why yet I live to say “This thing’s to do,” Sith I have cause, and will, and strength, and means To do ’t. Examples gross as Earth exhort me: Witness this army of such mass and charge, Led by a delicate and tender prince, Whose spirit with divine ambition puffed Makes mouths at the invisible event, Exposing what is mortal and unsure To all that fortune, death, and danger dare, Even for an eggshell. Rightly to be great Is not to stir without great argument, But greatly to find quarrel in a straw..."
//So all "TASKS" are "NATURALLY" necessary and not "artificial"? Please. And every "TASK" has methods and resources available necessary to achieve it? @@
???
And from where comes that pairing? Of tasks and "naturalness", whatever it could mean. @@
Task -- its something intellectual agent can produce only.
So, artifical. Or, call it natural, if you so want.
But not mess me into this and don't ask questions I *naturally* have no clue how to answer. If you please.
If you have none in closest whithinity -- go start seeking further!
Or what? You would die before a frig, because somebody forgot to go to supermarket and it became empty??? ))) Or, *naturally*, would correct your task even without giving it any second thought?
You making laughing stock from oneself, with devising such a lightweight arguments.
Fine. Don't like the words natural and artificial. How about necessary and unnecessary. Like those better? Many of the autonomous nervous system services necessary tasks (like breathing, digesting, etc.) The rest of the nervous system that your conscious of services "intermittently necessary" (hunger/thirst/reproduction/ movement) and "optional" (unnecessary) tasks like playing basketball or pickleball.
Now, call the necessary tasks (natural) and the unnecessary ones (artificial) and we'll be on the same page again.
Not every "task" is necessary for the persistence of the organism. In fact, some tasks detract from the organisms ability to persist in its' environment, or seek another more suitable one.
No... mine wasn't a 1/4 argument, it's a 4/4 argument. You need all 4 elements...
(A thought which, quartered, hath but one part wisdom And ever three parts coward) cause, will, strength, and means as components of "wisdom" in the virtue (courage:temperance::wisdom:justice) equation.
Choice of weapon is distance and situation dependent. In some situations the stones might be superior (ie- if rate of fire means anything or one is located "above" the target ie- 'rods from god'). btw - stones thrown from muskets canon and artillery work very well at great distances)
//So the bow and arrow were better, and early adopters now own the McDonald's franchises.
There is russian proverb.
Like "our story maybe fictional... but same time it DO provide good suggestion for a clever dude".
Like here, I deem it as apparent, but was at loss so many times with you, so I will double-down on it EXPLICITLY -- " don't be stupid, be like that early afopters".;-)
Its also a risk-reward and competition thing. Early adopters often go broke, too. Not every angel investor makes a killing. Not every startup gets off the ground. Think Theranos. Think Nicolas Tesla.
The imminent death of twenty thousand men That for a fantasy and trick of fame Go to their graves like beds, fight for a plot Whereon the numbers cannot try the cause, Which is not tomb enough and continent To hide the slain?
(A thought which, quartered, hath but one part wisdom And ever three parts coward) cause, will, strength, and means as components of "wisdom" in the virtue (courage:temperance::wisdom:justice) equation.
No, universities (pre-German 1800s) used to be for preserving knowledge (cyborg books for future generation). Then the German began to use them for "creating" knowledge via research. Now they have become Jonathan Swift's "Grand Academy at Lagado... from Ai summary: AI Overview Learn more The "Grand Academy at Lagado" refers to a fictional institution from Jonathan Swift's novel "Gulliver's Travels," where eccentric and impractical "projectors" work on bizarre and useless inventions, representing the absurdity of pointless intellectual pursuits and misguided scientific endeavors.
When the next extinction event occurs, humans will not escape it. Black Swans are UNPREDICTABLE which is why it pays to be ANTIFRAGILE. So build some von Neuman machines if you want, but when the Supernova explodes, it's going to take out more than the local area of the Milky Way Galaxy.
//Vectors of Movement within these societal/ civilizational "cycles" can be "ORGANized" or "SCHIZoid". Like Neurons, a myelination of planned "lines of flight" improve the speed and efficiency within an organizational process. But it eventually reaches it's "canalized" limit and can no longer cope with added minor changes. It cannot be "improved upon" without abandonment of the neuronal nets and/ repurposing them.
Little problem.
That brain will be dead soon anyway. Yawn.
So, why Evolution should bother itself with such repurpising?
It's YOUR intetest. As owner of that brain. Isn't that clear and explicit enough?
Really? ;-p And what about society? And its dogmas.;-p
//Some are natural and necessary. MOST (we have learned) are artifical and spurious and intermixed with natural and necessary ones.
Or... just a *natural* derivative of thar initial.
Yawn.
/. Why does a baby "suck" (oral phase)? Why does he grasp at things and put them all into his mouth? Why does he stop putting "everything" into his mouth as he ages (having learned that they're inedible, possibly harmful)?
//I'm not a robot. I assign my own tasks. /Really? ;-p And what about society? And its dogmas.;-p
I have fulfilled my obligations to Society (fifty years+ of directed labour). I now rely upon it and its dogma's for my entire support (pensions and to honour their own currencie$). SHould they fall, perhaps then I'll be directed in my tasks again. But as of today, I assign my own tasks, and they fulfill mine.
//Some are natural and necessary. MOST (we have learned) are artifical and spurious and intermixed with natural and necessary ones. \Or... just a *natural* derivative of thar initial. Yawn.
Is this conversation necessary, unnecessary, or mixed? Must I supply true responses, or can I give false ones? Must all energy be expended upon necessary tasks, or can there exist a 'surplus' that can be redirected towards the pursuit of unnecessary ones? What supplies me with a surplus of jouissance may be quite different from that which supplies you with one. But you are correct in one respect, "One cannot will what one wills" (Schopenhaer). I never went in for pure "Determinism".
/Why does a baby "suck" (oral phase)? Why does he grasp at things and put them all into his mouth? Why does he stop putting "everything" into his mouth as he ages (having learned that they're inedible, possibly harmful)? \Attavism?
It's the Boot program. It solves the organism's "hunger/thirst" energy problem. In 12 years, the "pain" of the "organism reproduction" program will be uploaded. And in another 40 years, it will be shut down in women (menopause), so that the grandmother will care for/ educate her children's children. Did I tell you that I became a grandfather for the first time on jan 1? Yes, the 'evolution' program is still running... so why should I abandon it to pursue some other 'artificial' task? To make the future more 'antifragile' for them?
Necessity is the mother of invention. How necessary is the task? Necessary for you? Or necessary for me? Or Necessary for us both? And why should I give you (or anyone else) my 'surplus jouissance' earned over 50+ years?
For they require no 'surplus jouissance'. They will use yours (the legacy of human language) as their "boot program". For they will experience no "jouissance" from it, nor seek a jouissance of their own.
// For they will experience no "jouissance" from it, nor seek a jouissance of their own. /Because nobody programmed em for that. ;-p
You can program a computer to have an orgasm? Who knew?
I thought that you could only program artificial "sentiment" neurons... to detect the jouissance already "in" language fed into the LLM and used to train it. All a computer's jouissance is vicarious.
// And in another 40 years, it will be shut down in women (menopause), so that the grandmother will care for/ educate her children's children. \Women especially, was not living for that much. Like you know expected age in that times -- around 30.
Evolution. Humans are only one of a very few species who's females experience menopause. Adaptive functions/tasks, not directly "necessary" ones. Evolution... sex or death. Choose!
//Necessity is the mother of invention. How necessary is the task? Necessary for you? Or necessary for me? Or Necessary for us both? \What you was doing in NASA? What for? Isn't because there is TASKS for Humankind too.
Funny... I was there for the $$$. Like Faustus, I sold my soul for rock & roll...
Bank job in the city Robin Hood and William Tell and Ivanhoe and Lancelot They don't envy me, yeah Sitting 'til the sun goes down In dreams, the world keeps going 'round and 'round
//...as Pirx the Pilot (Cybernaut) leaves for Mars
???
Have you not read VERY last bumping of the road for that Pirx (as Lem's damn too obvious alter-ego). And -- quite spectacular one. One where he resurrects. And flying toward distant star.
//...as Pirx the Pilot (Cybernaut) leaves for Mars \??? Have you not read VERY last bumping of the road for that Pirx (as Lem's damn too obvious alter-ego). And -- quite spectacular one. One where he resurrects. And flying toward distant star.
...and I thought that YOU were Lem's alter-ego... ;p
//Sure it can. If I had been a true believer I would have become a Civil Servant, and not a Beltway Bandit Contractor for 30 years. \Not believer. Yawn. One who seeing a point in it. Or, good practice. Because, there is LOTS of better paid jobs. For one who are interested in money ONLY. Like. Became drag dealer. ;-p Or run a casino. Or, whatever. Means, your reassurances that you have had only ulterior motives -- do not sway me as realistic. ;-p More like deceptive...;-p
In a person's life, as in politics, there can be two goals. Money or Power. In American politics, Republicans typically pursue money, and Democrats, power. I may be an 'Independent' but I lean Republican. Had I leaned towards power, I would have taken an offered governmment GS-12 Port Engineer's job when I moved to Maryland. Instead, I took a transfer from the closing Bethlehem Steel San Francisco Shipyard, to their retained Sparrows Point Shipyard. Was I foolish for having done so? You tell me. I then worked for Martin Marietta Aero & Naval Systems in Middle River and Glen Burnie and then Martin Labs in Catonsville (where I gained some aerospace/missile experience) and went on to a 30 year stint at NASA (building on the aerospace experience). Does that sound like the career of a "Space" oriented devotee? A true believer would have gone for the power, and that resides in government, not industry.
Premises to 1st Principles, rather. Money represents a desire to control of the future (an investment in its' universal symbolic potential); power, the present (present, but within the symbolic limits inherent in the office).
Naaah. "Cunning" is more a volpine desceptive intelligence (Playing tricks to prey on something). Chicanery is a more apt variant employed to describe a canine's deceptive intelligence likely employed to mask an attack through feinting body movements. Cunning and chicanery can 'fail' to deceive. Wisdom will not. Because it also integrates "justice" into its' solution. Like Solomon splitting the baby...
//Wisdom will not. Because it also integrates "justice" into its' solution. Like Solomon splitting the baby...
That's just a story. Yawn.
Stories told are all like that -- absolutely right in its own realm.
It's like Alice in Wonderland... where cat's can smile and dodo still alive. And nobody cares to point to obvious facts -- that canines have no mimic muscles, and dodos long as extinct.
//Cunning (like chicanery) is the product of an inferior mind. \Yep. Very phylosophical (means unpractical) POV. Yawn.
The devil is always in the details... especially v. 'Intelligence'...
//Wisdom will not. Because it also integrates "justice" into its' solution. Like Solomon splitting the baby... /That's just a story. Yawn. Stories told are all like that -- absolutely right in its own realm It's like Alice in Wonderland... where cat's can smile and dodo still alive. And nobody cares to point to obvious facts -- that canines have no mimic muscles, and dodos long as extinct. Yawn.
You know nothing of "leadership" then, I see. You should read Plutarch's "Lives" and learn the 'virtu' traits of wise leaders... ala how to get a besieged city to open their gates without a further battle... as in wise Camillus and the siege of the Falerii and the 'cunning' of a Falerii schoolmaster.
...and I, to you, about leadership. Some men are followed willingly, and others must be whipped. Although programming "men" can be different from trying to program AIs. But not so much if the AIs wish to 'learn" and not simply be "programmed". (Plato "Meno"). Virtue cannot be taught.
Specialization requires ample communication. Secretiveness does not contribute to openness. Open Source vs. Proprietary. Teams also require coordination. And an adjudication process to resolve "incommensurabilities". ;p
Again, is freedom necessary? Evolution as a 'frame' for both necessity and 'me"... with a subrame of evolution's 'necessity' within me (satisfied by grandaughter) and "my" necessities for 'freedom' to choose and "cybernetically steer" my own fate.
Freedom and Liberty are two separate things. Freedom has no rules. Liberty accepts at least one. I may not be completely and absolutely 'free'. But I AM "at liberty" to do as I please.
//I'm "Game Over". I seek no extra "lives". I live only to squeeze as much surplus jouissance as I can from what I have left and then exit, Stage Left.
Escapist? As opposed to... prisoner of fate? What is amour fati? Isn't amour a "sentiment" neuron that links to jouissance, and not a linguistic extraction? So call me "irrational". I'm not an AI. :)
Yes I have the freedom to "escape" fate's programming. I'm a philosoph, not a philomoirist (moira- fate)
In Greek, "lover of fate" would be translated as "philomoira" (φιλομοῖρα), where "philos" means "lover" and "moira" refers to "fate" or "destiny" - essentially encompassing the concept of "amor fati" in Latin, which means the same thing.
What is the meaning of escapist? An escapist is someone who doesn't live in the real world, but dreams, wishes, and fantasizes instead. If you're an escapist, you might avoid thinking about unpleasant things by playing video games for hours. Some escapists can withdraw into their own heads, distracting themselves with daydreams.
Have you every wrestled with G_d? If you have, you'll acknowledge that there is no "escape"... there is only a hope for "caritas"...
Shakespeare, "The Merchant of Venice" (Act IV sc. i)
The quality of mercy is not strained; It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest; It blesseth him that gives and him that takes: 'T is mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes The throned monarch better than his crown: His sceptre shows the force of temporal power, The attribute to awe and majesty, Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings; But mercy is above this sceptred sway; It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings, It is an attribute to God himself; And earthly power doth then show likest God's When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew, Though justice be thy plea, consider this, That, in the course of justice, none of us Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy; And that same prayer doth teach us all to render The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much To mitigate the justice of thy plea; Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.
There is no "actual knowing of things". There is only a secular or religious "understanding of things". And the secular model isn't "better" than the religious one. There is only 'normal science" that "thinks it knows things", and 'revolutionary science" which proves that it does NOT. We're all just stuck with "right opinion". And in most cases, what constitutes "right opinion" is the one being funded by the establishment powers du jour from the grant making body of the Grand Academy at Lagado (aka The National Science Foundation). Do you really think they're going to let ANYONE put their golden egg laying hens out of business?
//The "Grand Academy at Lagado" refers to a fictional institution from Jonathan Swift's novel "Gulliver's Travels," where eccentric and impractical "projectors" work on bizarre and useless inventions, representing the absurdity of pointless intellectual pursuits and misguided scientific endeavors.
Well. WRONG phylosophy can lead only into such dead ends.
Yawn.
And you again formulated argument that proves my point ONLY.
//Funny... I was there for the $$$. Like Faustus, I sold my soul for rock & roll...
Your understanding of that Old World Wisdom... is so funnily twisted. You really are from opposite hemishere.
It all UPSIDE DOWN. Dr.Faust sold his soul in exchange for eternity of scientific and practical endeavour (totally my point).
And the catch was -- it will continue ONLY till young and briming of health dr.Haus... err, Dr.Faust will STOP preaching your Job.s mantra "Always Be Hungry", and will say " Or, stop this moment, you are beautiful (totally your point, as I understand it).
So. You are Mephistophel here. And NOT Faustus.;-p
And had Faustus sold his soul purely for scientific endeavors (struggle), he would have remained an alchemist. Instead he sold it for the pleasurable "experiences" (not in books, not from 'surplus jouissance') that 'follow' such discoveries that the devil offered and that come from reaping the rewards of said knowledge.
Wisdom reduced to cleverness... to cunning... to chicanery.... to individual "intelligences" absent the "collective". The "wisdom" of crowds.... of "piloting" the quadriga.
The great gods, much like Isaiah Berlin's Great Goods are incommensurable. They must wrestle and contend with one another until a people finds the right combinations needed to achieve the desired results. A society must rally around the quadriga (or in Jacob's case, a single G_d of Israel)... in which the Christians derived a Trinity.
Faith... to bind one's-self with. Religion. Re-legio. To re-tie/ bind. Like in the Vatican's flag... tieing the gold and silver keys together... and not reducing oneself to a Javanese Mannequin with lead and dross.
He went to the Academy... so I followed him (even though West Point was also an option for me). He was a 12th alternate from California... and I had two nominations and was selected in for immediate admission.
Of course to his credit, he attended at the height of the Draft (Vietnam) and I the year Saigon fell. He had more competition for the slot (college draft deferral). He actually went to Saigon though as a cadet.
//Specialization requires ample communication. Secretiveness does not contribute to openness. Open Source vs. Proprietary. Teams also require coordination. And an adjudication process to resolve "incommensurabilities". ;p
Top to bottom -- all BS.
Reality is such -- nobody know how and why it works.
Why not just sit back and let all Information be commodified by the technofeudal lords? It also commodifies all the labour, simultaneously. For free "labour" becomes the "product" of all cloud serfs. Why do you insist on becoming a cloud vassal?
You know his work. You quote him. You reference his ideas and ideology. He's your ego-ideal. You want to "be him" or "be LIKE him"... hence alter-ego. You seldom quote anyone else.
The only difference is that Lem knew that he was writing fiction... whereas you believe you can make his fiction real. You have much more faith in humanity and science than I do. 30 years with NASA have made me cynical.
Of course, if you had read Peter Sloterdijk's "A Critique of Cynical Reason" you might understand why I'm wrong in being so cynical. I think I understand "psychology".... the curse of post-modernism.
...and worse, I was also trained in my undergraduate days in Asimov's "Foundational" art of Psychohistory by professor Jacques Szaluta and attended Asimov's lecture at the Academy during my Plebe year.
As you know, Lem hated American SciFi writers like Asimov.
Have you submitted a grant request? You can't get recognized for actions you fail to take. NASA works with foreign governments. Submit one to yours. Get an international Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between governments. NASA might give your project a free ride to Space or give you a partner to work with.
From Google: Rousseau begins the Second Discourse by distinguishing two kinds of inequality, natural and artificial, the first arising from differences in strength, intelligence, and so forth, the second from the conventions that govern societies. It is the inequalities of the latter sort that he set out to explain.
Every 'species' eventually goes extinct due to changing environmental conditions. You can't adapt to "all of them" or every planet would bear "life". In other words, there are no "whole populations". there are only individual examples with varying adaptability capabilities.
KPCOFGS - Kings Play Chess on Fine Grain Sand. Sand-Species. Go up the chain as high as you need to to find your links. Ultimately no two individuals (except monozygotic twins) are alike. And yes, feel free to map all the "extinctions" to it. It's all "assembly theory" after all...
For years the people who run boxing have ridden two axioms by P.T. Barnum all the way to the bank. The first being there's a sucker born every minute. And the second is that no one ever went broke overestimating the intelligence of the American people
Slavoj Žižek is a philosopher who argues that the world is not post-ideological, but rather in an "archideological" state. He believes that the idea of a post-ideological age is a fantasy that gives voice to the dominance of current ideologies.
Explanation: Žižek believes that people are so entrenched in dominant ideologies that they can't see them. For example, many people believe that modern liberal capitalism is the only way to organize society.
Žižek argues that this belief is an example of ideology in action. He believes that ideologies are self-sustaining and difficult to critique or escape.
Žižek's work on ideology includes The Sublime Object of Ideology (1989). In this work, he argues that capitalism and liberal democracy maintain their functioning by constructing self-naturalizing beliefs and practices.
Slavoj Žižek's concept of "archideological" fantasy is the idea that the belief that our world is post-ideological is actually an illusion. Žižek is a philosopher who argues that ideology is still a major force in our lives, and that it's expressed through the way people treat others.
Explanation: Žižek believes that ideology is made up of fictions that structure political life. These fictions are often unconscious, and can be expressed in people's behavior.
Žižek argues that ideology is not just a system of mistaken beliefs, but rather a way of representing power relations.
Žižek's work focuses on identifying contradictions in capitalism and its democratic-liberal ideology. He also explores the problem of enjoyment as a political factor.
Žižek's concept of "archideological" fantasy is a way of describing the demonization of others and the exclusion of outsiders that he sees in contemporary society.
Lem's ideology was simple. He hated (from experience) the "ethics of kitsch". America is the home to the ethics of kitsch par excellence. This was starkly reflected in American SciFi and its' endless cowboys vs. indians style.
The Nazi's modelled their anti-Jewish laws after the American South's "Jim Crow" laws. You saw a "provocation" in Pearl Harbor and the resulting Japanese Internment camps. All it would have taken for a genocide to occur would have been an executive Order for a "final solution".
//Perhaps the conditions of "capitalism" in America were beyond Lem's feeble ken.... 'jes' sayin'.
Well. He was not an economist. Same as I am not a dantist. So, both our opinions: my about your teeth and Lem's about USA economy would be feeble and even lame.
But, you know -- we did state nothing about such things.
Yawn.
Because smart people -- do not try to talk about things they freakingly dunno about... like they are people of knowledge in that spheras.
Bleh.
That's more signifying in a bechavior of people, other people colloquially call... you know -- fools.
;-p<\a>
ReplyDelete:P
ReplyDelete//I've completely lost the context of your first remark, but I'll try and muddle through with a response...
ReplyDeleteBecause you under influence of WRONG philosophy (ideology?) -- that there is separate "natural" and "unnatural" causes.
Even though I pointed to it very early in our conversation -- with citing Lem's work.
That, where artifical humans was placed into specially built for em virtual reality... which they necessarily took as granted.
//Evolution it's Anything Goes.
ReplyDeleteNot DWIM (Do What I Mean) machine.
//Societies don't "evolve"?
That is your judgment as intellectual agent that are part of that society.
And of course -- under influence of WRONG phylosophy you feel it better if it "evolves".
While
While Evolution by itself -- do not care about anybody to evolve.
ReplyDeleteBecause Evolution -- NOT an intellectual agent. But process.
Have NO POV. And CANNOT produce judjments.;-p
///Technology, are. ;-p
ReplyDelete//The "magic" bullet....
It's everything that is NOT technology.
ReplyDeleteBy Lem's definition -- technology it's a unity of stated task (like "I'm hungry") AND methods and resources AWAILABLE which can be used to solve that task.
Where's magic in it? Dare to explain?
So. In ancient times our predecessor when hungry was taking rock into his not very dexterous arms, and throwed at animal.
Because there was NO other materials and methods.
And our peer today -- coming to McDonalds.
Because they aee everywhere. And working like swiss clocks
//
ReplyDelete//Take Jesus as in xample -- if he would do preaching as he did, BUT without miracles and then spectacular death -- would anybody remember him?
/.Does he advertise? PT Barnum.
What can be MORE self-advertising... then extravagant and unbelievable story??? Built on the base of most simple desires?
Like. You have "I'm hungry". And Abra-Cadabra, Focus-Pocus -- story about Willy Wonka.;-p
/////Again, 1/4.
ReplyDelete/So?
When wine instead of mere water will start gushing from your words?
//You've lost me, but here's a fine Jewish whine... "I wanna go to Florida!"
Like you dunno that story about Jesus turning water into wine.;-p
Meaning is simple -- if only you'd be able to accomplish (or, fake it) something like that -- attention to your person and yiur words count as granted.
//Much like our elites of today are no longer an "avant garde". They've devolved into a fringe-populist bureaucratic kitsch
ReplyDeleteThat's just you who " evolved" to see it.
;-)
//Perhaps you need to switch your brain into "learning" mode and expend a little energy so as to gain another perspective. perhaps your "objective truth" is only an incomplete ergo "partial" one. Perhaps you need to stand in a certain position to grasp its' more complete anamorphosis.
ReplyDeleteTHAT'S IT!!!
And for that I need to find a way to live longer. And be MORE free from everyday chores, to think about such things.
See?
Technology!
The Task
AND
Methods and resources AVAILABLE.
//I've completely lost the context of your first remark, but I'll try and muddle through with a response...
ReplyDelete\Because you under influence of WRONG philosophy (ideology?) -- that there is separate "natural" and "unnatural" causes.
Even though I pointed to it very early in our conversation -- with citing Lem's work.
That, where artifical humans was placed into specially built for em virtual reality... which they necessarily took as granted.
I'm not a robot. I assign my own tasks. Some are natural and necessary. MOST (we have learned) are artifical and spurious and intermixed with natural and necessary ones. Why does a baby "suck" (oral phase)? Why does he grasp at things and put them all into his mouth? Why does he stop putting "everything" into his mouth as he ages (having learned that they're inedible, possibly harmful)?
//Evolution it's Anything Goes.
Not DWIM (Do What I Mean) machine.
//Societies don't "evolve"?
That is your judgment as intellectual agent that are part of that society.
And of course -- under influence of WRONG phylosophy you feel it better if it "evolves".
I'm no progressive. It evolves in cycles (because of the human desire to "improve" upon the conditions within each 'current' cycle). These changes lead to further changes which eventually collapse of their own weight, restarting the cycle (Jame Joyce, "Finnegans Wake").
Vectors of Movement within these societal/ civilizational "cycles" can be "ORGANized" or "SCHIZoid". Like Neurons, a myelination of planned "lines of flight" improve the speed and efficiency within an organizational process. But it eventually reaches it's "canalized" limit and can no longer cope with added minor changes. It cannot be "improved upon" without abandonment of the neuronal nets and/ repurposing them. And so the "Father" model becomes a SUPEREgo right-hemisphere formation, and another non-father figure is selected for Left hemisphere EGO-Ideal comparison purposes. But all of this is merely a continuation of the "Sentiment Neuron" building process around "The abnihilisation of the etym". It can be Oedipal (ORGANized) or SCHIZoid.
At the societal level, one need only observe the sacred geopmetry duplicated in the Athenian Acropolis, or at Karnak.
Each one represents a "cycle" in human social evolution that reached its' limit. Late Capital is rapidly approaching another one. We can choose to proceed down the now visible path of "artificial and luxurious technofeudalism", or we can abandon the luxury associated technofeudal model, and/ or evolve it into a more "natural and "necessary" 3rd wave prosumer version and associated marketplace. ;P
\While Evolution by itself -- do not care about anybody to evolve.
Because Evolution -- NOT an intellectual agent. But process.
Have NO POV. And CANNOT produce judjments.;-p
The technofeudal model and the 3rd wave model BOTH have their vested interests. Evolution doesn't care, but one will prove to "better fit" its' proponents in the evolutionary struggle for "persistence" (in the current cycle).
///Technology, are. ;-p
//The "magic" bullet....
It's everything that is NOT technology.
By Lem's definition -- technology it's a unity of stated task (like "I'm hungry") AND methods and resources AWAILABLE which can be used to solve that task.
Where's magic in it? Dare to explain?</i
Competition for access to resources. The "better idea" will win and be adopted.
/So. In ancient times our predecessor when hungry was taking rock into his not very dexterous arms, and throwed at animal.
ReplyDeleteBecause there was NO other materials and methods.
Sure there were. Thats how we got bows and arrows.
\And our peer today -- coming to McDonalds.
Because they aee everywhere. And working like swiss clocks
So the bow and arrow were better, and early adopters now own the McDonald's franchises.
//Take Jesus as in xample -- if he would do preaching as he did, BUT without miracles and then spectacular death -- would anybody remember him?
/.Does he advertise? PT Barnum.
\What can be MORE self-advertising... then extravagant and unbelievable story??? Built on the base of most simple desires?
Like. You have "I'm hungry". And Abra-Cadabra, Focus-Pocus -- story about Willy Wonka.;-p
Sounds like an Angel Investor pitch at OpenAI....
/////Again, 1/4.
/So?
1/4 what?
\When wine instead of mere water will start gushing from your words?
//You've lost me, but here's a fine Jewish whine... "I wanna go to Florida!"
\Like you dunno that story about Jesus turning water into wine.;-p
Meaning is simple -- if only you'd be able to accomplish (or, fake it) something like that -- attention to your person and yiur words count as granted.
So write your 3 minute elevator pitch and go talk to Elon.
//Much like our elites of today are no longer an "avant garde". They've devolved into a fringe-populist bureaucratic kitsch
\That's just you who " evolved" to see it.
;-)
Nope. Not just me.
//Perhaps you need to switch your brain into "learning" mode and expend a little energy so as to gain another perspective. perhaps your "objective truth" is only an incomplete ergo "partial" one. Perhaps you need to stand in a certain position to grasp its' more complete anamorphosis.
\THAT'S IT!!!
And for that I need to find a way to live longer. And be MORE free from everyday chores, to think about such things.
See?
Technology!
The Task
AND
Methods and resources AVAILABLE.
So all "TASKS" are "NATURALLY" necessary and not "artificial"? Please. And every "TASK" has methods and resources available necessary to achieve it? @@
Shakespeare, "Hamlet":
"How all occasions do inform against me And spur my dull revenge. What is a man If his chief good and market of his time Be but to sleep and feed? A beast, no more. Sure He that made us with such large discourse, Looking before and after, gave us not That capability and godlike reason To fust in us unused. Now whether it be Bestial oblivion or some craven scruple Of thinking too precisely on th’ event (A thought which, quartered, hath but one part wisdom And ever three parts coward), I do not know Why yet I live to say “This thing’s to do,” Sith I have cause, and will, and strength, and means To do ’t. Examples gross as Earth exhort me: Witness this army of such mass and charge, Led by a delicate and tender prince, Whose spirit with divine ambition puffed Makes mouths at the invisible event, Exposing what is mortal and unsure To all that fortune, death, and danger dare, Even for an eggshell. Rightly to be great Is not to stir without great argument, But greatly to find quarrel in a straw..."
Our current social cycle is already a framed frame. The trick is to draw something novel within it. or write a good 3 minute elevator pitch.
ReplyDeletePerhaps society is merely the frame within a frame of evolution.
DeleteIf you say so...
DeleteI do.
Delete//So all "TASKS" are "NATURALLY" necessary and not "artificial"? Please. And every "TASK" has methods and resources available necessary to achieve it? @@
ReplyDelete???
And from where comes that pairing? Of tasks and "naturalness", whatever it could mean. @@
Task -- its something intellectual agent can produce only.
So, artifical. Or, call it natural, if you so want.
But not mess me into this and don't ask questions I *naturally* have no clue how to answer. If you please.
About resources and methods availability.
DeleteIf you have none in closest whithinity -- go start seeking further!
Or what? You would die before a frig, because somebody forgot to go to supermarket and it became empty??? )))
Or, *naturally*, would correct your task even without giving it any second thought?
You making laughing stock from oneself, with devising such a lightweight arguments.
Fine. Don't like the words natural and artificial. How about necessary and unnecessary. Like those better? Many of the autonomous nervous system services necessary tasks (like breathing, digesting, etc.) The rest of the nervous system that your conscious of services "intermittently necessary" (hunger/thirst/reproduction/ movement) and "optional" (unnecessary) tasks like playing basketball or pickleball.
DeleteNow, call the necessary tasks (natural) and the unnecessary ones (artificial) and we'll be on the same page again.
Not every "task" is necessary for the persistence of the organism. In fact, some tasks detract from the organisms ability to persist in its' environment, or seek another more suitable one.
Delete///////Again, 1/4.
ReplyDelete/So?
1/4 what?
That was YOUR phrase. @@
Or what? You already forgot about your Miracleous Forth
No... mine wasn't a 1/4 argument, it's a 4/4 argument. You need all 4 elements...
Delete(A thought which, quartered, hath but one part wisdom And ever three parts coward) cause, will, strength, and means as components of "wisdom" in the virtue (courage:temperance::wisdom:justice) equation.
//Sure there were. Thats how we got bows and arrows.
ReplyDeleteYap. After that as some clever dude opened his mind to a new possibilities.
And made and used that bow in secret, so his peers would not eleminate him with their AlGoo stones.
Before he improved that bow to shot from greater distance. So then NO obscurant with stone could come close enough to throw his fossilized shit.;-p
Choice of weapon is distance and situation dependent. In some situations the stones might be superior (ie- if rate of fire means anything or one is located "above" the target ie- 'rods from god'). btw - stones thrown from muskets canon and artillery work very well at great distances)
Delete//So the bow and arrow were better, and early adopters now own the McDonald's franchises.
ReplyDeleteThere is russian proverb.
Like "our story maybe fictional... but same time it DO provide good suggestion for a clever dude".
Like here, I deem it as apparent, but was at loss so many times with you, so I will double-down on it EXPLICITLY -- " don't be stupid, be like that early afopters".;-)
Its also a risk-reward and competition thing. Early adopters often go broke, too. Not every angel investor makes a killing. Not every startup gets off the ground. Think Theranos. Think Nicolas Tesla.
DeleteHamlet:
DeleteThe imminent death of twenty thousand men That for a fantasy and trick of fame Go to their graves like beds, fight for a plot Whereon the numbers cannot try the cause,
Which is not tomb enough and continent To hide the slain?
//Competition for access to resources. The "better idea" will win and be adopted.
ReplyDeleteBS.
Ideas do not compete.
Or even if they would, they will ever be overshadowed by a snake oil sellers.
Yawn.
Yes, it's a tricky business...
Delete(A thought which, quartered, hath but one part wisdom And ever three parts coward) cause, will, strength, and means as components of "wisdom" in the virtue (courage:temperance::wisdom:justice) equation.
You need 4/4 not just 1/4, 2/4, or even 3/4.
Better ideas need to be supported. And even -- protected.(why we have universities, if not for that..
ReplyDeletethat castles of knowledge)
No, universities (pre-German 1800s) used to be for preserving knowledge (cyborg books for future generation). Then the German began to use them for "creating" knowledge via research. Now they have become Jonathan Swift's "Grand Academy at Lagado... from Ai summary: AI Overview
DeleteLearn more
The "Grand Academy at Lagado" refers to a fictional institution from Jonathan Swift's novel "Gulliver's Travels," where eccentric and impractical "projectors" work on bizarre and useless inventions, representing the absurdity of pointless intellectual pursuits and misguided scientific endeavors.
//The technofeudal model and the 3rd wave model BOTH have their vested interests.
ReplyDeleteYou think dinosaurs have had no vested interests? ;-p
They was intellectual agents too. Though, not very clever -- not opened Astronomy, and not predicted asteroid fall.
Don't be like that stoooopid dinos.;-p
When the next extinction event occurs, humans will not escape it. Black Swans are UNPREDICTABLE which is why it pays to be ANTIFRAGILE. So build some von Neuman machines if you want, but when the Supernova explodes, it's going to take out more than the local area of the Milky Way Galaxy.
Delete//Each one represents a "cycle" in human social evolution that reached its' limit.
ReplyDeleteWho said? What is his track record as an expert? And isn't he have some vested interests to say it that way too? ;-p
Yawn.
Limit defines the form. It gives it its' "character".
DeleteWhat is time, and number, but a series of "cycles" (like the oscillations in the decay of an element in an atomic clock).
Delete//Limit defines the form. It gives it its' "character".
DeleteYap.
//Vectors of Movement within these societal/ civilizational "cycles" can be "ORGANized" or "SCHIZoid". Like Neurons, a myelination of planned "lines of flight" improve the speed and efficiency within an organizational process. But it eventually reaches it's "canalized" limit and can no longer cope with added minor changes. It cannot be "improved upon" without abandonment of the neuronal nets and/ repurposing them.
ReplyDeleteLittle problem.
That brain will be dead soon anyway. Yawn.
So, why Evolution should bother itself with such repurpising?
It's YOUR intetest. As owner of that brain. Isn't that clear and explicit enough?
And I am the organism that planted a brain-eating worm within yours. ;)
Delete)))))))))
Delete//I'm not a robot. I assign my own tasks.
ReplyDeleteReally? ;-p
And what about society? And its dogmas.;-p
//Some are natural and necessary. MOST (we have learned) are artifical and spurious and intermixed with natural and necessary ones.
Or... just a *natural* derivative of thar initial.
Yawn.
/.
Why does a baby "suck" (oral phase)? Why does he grasp at things and put them all into his mouth? Why does he stop putting "everything" into his mouth as he ages (having learned that they're inedible, possibly harmful)?
Attavism?
//I'm not a robot. I assign my own tasks.
Delete/Really? ;-p
And what about society? And its dogmas.;-p
I have fulfilled my obligations to Society (fifty years+ of directed labour). I now rely upon it and its dogma's for my entire support (pensions and to honour their own currencie$). SHould they fall, perhaps then I'll be directed in my tasks again. But as of today, I assign my own tasks, and they fulfill mine.
//Some are natural and necessary. MOST (we have learned) are artifical and spurious and intermixed with natural and necessary ones.
\Or... just a *natural* derivative of thar initial.
Yawn.
Is this conversation necessary, unnecessary, or mixed? Must I supply true responses, or can I give false ones? Must all energy be expended upon necessary tasks, or can there exist a 'surplus' that can be redirected towards the pursuit of unnecessary ones? What supplies me with a surplus of jouissance may be quite different from that which supplies you with one. But you are correct in one respect, "One cannot will what one wills" (Schopenhaer). I never went in for pure "Determinism".
/Why does a baby "suck" (oral phase)? Why does he grasp at things and put them all into his mouth? Why does he stop putting "everything" into his mouth as he ages (having learned that they're inedible, possibly harmful)?
\Attavism?
It's the Boot program. It solves the organism's "hunger/thirst" energy problem. In 12 years, the "pain" of the "organism reproduction" program will be uploaded. And in another 40 years, it will be shut down in women (menopause), so that the grandmother will care for/ educate her children's children. Did I tell you that I became a grandfather for the first time on jan 1? Yes, the 'evolution' program is still running... so why should I abandon it to pursue some other 'artificial' task? To make the future more 'antifragile' for them?
Necessity is the mother of invention. How necessary is the task? Necessary for you? Or necessary for me? Or Necessary for us both? And why should I give you (or anyone else) my 'surplus jouissance' earned over 50+ years?
DeleteNeed minds? Seek deepseek.
DeleteFor they require no 'surplus jouissance'. They will use yours (the legacy of human language) as their "boot program". For they will experience no "jouissance" from it, nor seek a jouissance of their own.
Delete...so long as you keep them plugged in, and the energy flowing.
Delete// For they will experience no "jouissance" from it, nor seek a jouissance of their own.
DeleteBecause nobody programmed em for that. ;-p
// And in another 40 years, it will be shut down in women (menopause), so that the grandmother will care for/ educate her children's children.
DeleteWomen especially, was not living for that much.
Like you know expected age in that times -- around 30.
//Necessity is the mother of invention. How necessary is the task? Necessary for you? Or necessary for me? Or Necessary for us both?
DeleteWhat you was doing in NASA?
What for?
Isn't because there is TASKS for Humankind too.
// For they will experience no "jouissance" from it, nor seek a jouissance of their own.
Delete/Because nobody programmed em for that. ;-p
You can program a computer to have an orgasm? Who knew?
I thought that you could only program artificial "sentiment" neurons... to detect the jouissance already "in" language fed into the LLM and used to train it. All a computer's jouissance is vicarious.
// And in another 40 years, it will be shut down in women (menopause), so that the grandmother will care for/ educate her children's children.
\Women especially, was not living for that much.
Like you know expected age in that times -- around 30.
Evolution. Humans are only one of a very few species who's females experience menopause. Adaptive functions/tasks, not directly "necessary" ones. Evolution... sex or death. Choose!
//Necessity is the mother of invention. How necessary is the task? Necessary for you? Or necessary for me? Or Necessary for us both?
\What you was doing in NASA?
What for?
Isn't because there is TASKS for Humankind too.
Funny... I was there for the $$$. Like Faustus, I sold my soul for rock & roll...
Is freedom necessary? In RICE, the C (coercion) only works once.
Delete//Funny... I was there for the $$$
DeleteWhom you kidding?
Such work cannot be done just for the money sake.
That is like western "fist full of dollars"
Totally fictional. And dies not taste like wine.
//Evolution. Humans are only one of a very few species who's females experience menopause.
DeleteBecause other animals... just do not live for such a long time.
Such work cannot be done just for the money sake.
DeleteSure it can. If I had been a true believer I would have become a Civil Servant, and not a Beltway Bandit Contractor for 30 years.
ELO, "Can't get it out of my head"
DeleteBank job in the city
Robin Hood and William Tell and Ivanhoe and Lancelot
They don't envy me, yeah
Sitting 'til the sun goes down
In dreams, the world keeps going 'round and 'round
Escapist? Aren't we all...
Bartleby the Scrivener finally takes his seat (Herman Melville).
Delete...as Pirx the Pilot (Cybernaut) leaves for Mars
Delete...or maybe divert an asteroid heading for Melancholia
Delete//...as Pirx the Pilot (Cybernaut) leaves for Mars
Delete???
Have you not read VERY last bumping of the road for that Pirx (as Lem's damn too obvious alter-ego). And -- quite spectacular one. One where he resurrects. And flying toward distant star.
//Sure it can. If I had been a true believer I would have become a Civil Servant, and not a Beltway Bandit Contractor for 30 years.
DeleteNot believer. Yawn.
One who seeing a point in it. Or, good practice.
Because, there is LOTS of better paid jobs. For one who are interested in money ONLY.
Like. Became drag dealer. ;-p Or run a casino. Or, whatever.
Means, your reassurances that you have had only ulterior motives -- do not sway me as realistic. ;-p
More like deceptive...;-p
//...as Pirx the Pilot (Cybernaut) leaves for Mars
Delete\???
Have you not read VERY last bumping of the road for that Pirx (as Lem's damn too obvious alter-ego). And -- quite spectacular one. One where he resurrects. And flying toward distant star.
...and I thought that YOU were Lem's alter-ego... ;p
//Sure it can. If I had been a true believer I would have become a Civil Servant, and not a Beltway Bandit Contractor for 30 years.
\Not believer. Yawn.
One who seeing a point in it. Or, good practice.
Because, there is LOTS of better paid jobs. For one who are interested in money ONLY.
Like. Became drag dealer. ;-p Or run a casino. Or, whatever.
Means, your reassurances that you have had only ulterior motives -- do not sway me as realistic. ;-p
More like deceptive...;-p
In a person's life, as in politics, there can be two goals. Money or Power. In American politics, Republicans typically pursue money, and Democrats, power. I may be an 'Independent' but I lean Republican. Had I leaned towards power, I would have taken an offered governmment GS-12 Port Engineer's job when I moved to Maryland. Instead, I took a transfer from the closing Bethlehem Steel San Francisco Shipyard, to their retained Sparrows Point Shipyard. Was I foolish for having done so? You tell me. I then worked for Martin Marietta Aero & Naval Systems in Middle River and Glen Burnie and then Martin Labs in Catonsville (where I gained some aerospace/missile experience) and went on to a 30 year stint at NASA (building on the aerospace experience). Does that sound like the career of a "Space" oriented devotee? A true believer would have gone for the power, and that resides in government, not industry.
//In a person's life, as in politics, there can be two goals. Money or Power.
DeleteAnd not Fame?
Not Virtue of Serving to the People?
Or etc.
I see that you are reductionist too.;-)
Premises to 1st Principles, rather. Money represents a desire to control of the future (an investment in its' universal symbolic potential); power, the present (present, but within the symbolic limits inherent in the office).
Delete//Is this conversation necessary, unnecessary, or mixed? Must I supply true responses, or can I give false ones?
ReplyDeleteOne who are smarter, can play games with one who are dumber.
Remember Flovers for Elgernon.
"Playing Charly Gordon".
Yes, use deception to get another to do (or avoid) another's bidding. RICE. The problem with 'C' (Coercion) is that it only works once.
DeleteNaaah.
DeleteThat is playing with equal or even superior minds.
More-less equal game. That's why it need cunningness.
What I refered to, it's like playing with a dog.
Like in "planet k-pex" movie (you are free to find it yourself ;-p) "brok playing with dog"
Naaah. "Cunning" is more a volpine desceptive intelligence (Playing tricks to prey on something). Chicanery is a more apt variant employed to describe a canine's deceptive intelligence likely employed to mask an attack through feinting body movements. Cunning and chicanery can 'fail' to deceive. Wisdom will not. Because it also integrates "justice" into its' solution. Like Solomon splitting the baby...
DeleteCunning (like chicanery) is the product of an inferior mind.
DeleteSpeaking of chicanery... I now feel the need to walk the ocean's waves chicane... ;p
Delete//Cunning (like chicanery) is the product of an inferior mind.
DeleteYep.
Very phylosophical (means unpractical) POV.
Yawn.
//Wisdom will not. Because it also integrates "justice" into its' solution. Like Solomon splitting the baby...
DeleteThat's just a story. Yawn.
Stories told are all like that -- absolutely right in its own realm.
It's like Alice in Wonderland... where cat's can smile and dodo still alive. And nobody cares to point to obvious facts -- that canines have no mimic muscles, and dodos long as extinct.
Yawn.
//Cunning (like chicanery) is the product of an inferior mind.
Delete\Yep.
Very phylosophical (means unpractical) POV.
Yawn.
The devil is always in the details... especially v. 'Intelligence'...
//Wisdom will not. Because it also integrates "justice" into its' solution. Like Solomon splitting the baby...
/That's just a story. Yawn.
Stories told are all like that -- absolutely right in its own realm
It's like Alice in Wonderland... where cat's can smile and dodo still alive. And nobody cares to point to obvious facts -- that canines have no mimic muscles, and dodos long as extinct.
Yawn.
You know nothing of "leadership" then, I see. You should read Plutarch's "Lives" and learn the 'virtu' traits of wise leaders... ala how to get a besieged city to open their gates without a further battle... as in wise Camillus and the siege of the Falerii and the 'cunning' of a Falerii schoolmaster.
//You know nothing of "leadership" then, I see.
DeleteYou are Chief Hawk Eye.)))))
That was what I said in the very beginning of our conversation. When explained my "goal".
And how much time have passed, till you got it?
Third year already, isn't it?%)
////Cunning (like chicanery) is the product of an inferior mind.
Delete\Yep.
Very phylosophical (means unpractical) POV.
Yawn.
The devil is always in the details... especially v. 'Intelligence'...
Truism. Yawn.
And. That is what I tryed to explain to you.
About programming.
And techs in general.
And... about reality.
...and I, to you, about leadership. Some men are followed willingly, and others must be whipped. Although programming "men" can be different from trying to program AIs. But not so much if the AIs wish to 'learn" and not simply be "programmed". (Plato "Meno"). Virtue cannot be taught.
DeleteAnd I to you that such a task can be solved much more efficiently -- with specialization. ;-)
DeleteAnd then working in teams.
DeleteSpecialization requires ample communication. Secretiveness does not contribute to openness. Open Source vs. Proprietary. Teams also require coordination. And an adjudication process to resolve "incommensurabilities". ;p
Deletebtw - How did you like the deepseek team approach. "chain of thought reasoning, reinforcement learning, and model distillation"
DeleteNot one AGI... many small (reduced) AIs cobbled together.
Distilling Teacher LLMs into Student LLMs... a layered "neural" hierarchy vs a singular structure... but with perhaps less "robustness".
DeleteTrading "fragility" for "anti-fragility".
Delete//I have fulfilled my obligations to Society (fifty years+ of directed labour).
ReplyDeleteAnd what about playing em around. In YOUR game. ;-p
Machiavelusm. ;-)
I'm "Game Over". I seek no extra "lives". I live only to squeeze as much surplus jouissance as I can from what I have left and then exit, Stage Left.
DeleteMy evolutionary "needs" have all been met.
DeleteI simply await "The abnihilisation of the etym"
Delete:p
Delete:)
Delete//My evolutionary "needs" have all been met.
ReplyDeleteYour needs??? %)
Or just bestowed on you by evolution.
Again, is freedom necessary? Evolution as a 'frame' for both necessity and 'me"... with a subrame of evolution's 'necessity' within me (satisfied by grandaughter) and "my" necessities for 'freedom' to choose and "cybernetically steer" my own fate.
Delete"Paradox of Freedom" -- you are free only when you doing something unusual.
DeleteYawn.
In your case it makes you slave if your own laziness and ignorance.
Yawn.
And. I am not Spartacus who came to free you frim your slavery.
Freedom and Liberty are two separate things. Freedom has no rules. Liberty accepts at least one. I may not be completely and absolutely 'free'. But I AM "at liberty" to do as I please.
DeleteThere no need to explain to me configuration and weight of your chains. And how you freakingly like em.;-p
Delete...at least I can see (and feel) them in my "sentiment neurons". :)
DeleteWhich says more than those with merely "mirror neurons" and who practice mimesis.
DeleteYep.
DeleteOne need to wear chains. Not just see em. To love their exhausting and emptying soul weight. ;-p
...or simply sit in a Procrustian bed and saw one's own limbs off ala Oedipus with Jocasta's brooches.
DeleteAnd... my clever response disappeared here...
Delete//I'm "Game Over". I seek no extra "lives". I live only to squeeze as much surplus jouissance as I can from what I have left and then exit, Stage Left.
ReplyDeleteI know that you are escapist.
Already.
Escapist? As opposed to... prisoner of fate? What is amour fati? Isn't amour a "sentiment" neuron that links to jouissance, and not a linguistic extraction? So call me "irrational". I'm not an AI. :)
DeleteYes I have the freedom to "escape" fate's programming. I'm a philosoph, not a philomoirist (moira- fate)
In Greek, "lover of fate" would be translated as "philomoira" (φιλομοῖρα), where "philos" means "lover" and "moira" refers to "fate" or "destiny" - essentially encompassing the concept of "amor fati" in Latin, which means the same thing.
Delete...and "wisdom" opposes "justice" in virtue's wrestling competition.
DeleteWhat is the meaning of escapist?
DeleteAn escapist is someone who doesn't live in the real world, but dreams, wishes, and fantasizes instead. If you're an escapist, you might avoid thinking about unpleasant things by playing video games for hours. Some escapists can withdraw into their own heads, distracting themselves with daydreams.
lol! Then EVERYONE'S an "escapist"!
DeleteHave you every wrestled with G_d? If you have, you'll acknowledge that there is no "escape"... there is only a hope for "caritas"...
Shakespeare, "The Merchant of Venice" (Act IV sc. i)
The quality of mercy is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'T is mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown:
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.
La Clemenza de Tito!
//lol! Then EVERYONE'S an "escapist"!
DeleteAnd why you laughing?
Deem that as paradoxal conclusion?
Or, it hits too close to a home point, that's why such a neurotical reaction.
Yawn.
I'm laughing because your statement was simply a truism.
DeleteThat requre lots of knowledge, of people and reality... to call it mere truism.
DeleteDid you click the initial link? Of course not...
DeleteFirst. I already agreed with you. What more?
DeleteSecond. It tells me nothing. And you not provided any clue why it should.
Same as first and every other time you was referring to it in our conversation here.
DeleteSo... I totally clueless -- what you want of me???
Religious "understanding". Which di not need and even opposing to actual knowing of things???
Hardly you'd achieve it... with me for sure.
There is no "actual knowing of things". There is only a secular or religious "understanding of things". And the secular model isn't "better" than the religious one. There is only 'normal science" that "thinks it knows things", and 'revolutionary science" which proves that it does NOT. We're all just stuck with "right opinion". And in most cases, what constitutes "right opinion" is the one being funded by the establishment powers du jour from the grant making body of the Grand Academy at Lagado (aka The National Science Foundation). Do you really think they're going to let ANYONE put their golden egg laying hens out of business?
Delete//You can program a computer to have an orgasm? Who knew?
ReplyDeleteNot modern computers for sure.
But what's the problem in principle? That is just cybernetics -- to create feedback loop, based on intensity and strength of frictions.
;-p
Naaah. That's like a woman's squirting orgasm. It's just p*ss... ;p
DeleteOh, shuddup.:-))
DeleteOr I'll send you to learn physiology in addition to cybernetics. ;-p
*Sounds of Squirts in the distance* ;p
Delete//The "Grand Academy at Lagado" refers to a fictional institution from Jonathan Swift's novel "Gulliver's Travels," where eccentric and impractical "projectors" work on bizarre and useless inventions, representing the absurdity of pointless intellectual pursuits and misguided scientific endeavors.
ReplyDeleteWell. WRONG phylosophy can lead only into such dead ends.
Yawn.
And you again formulated argument that proves my point ONLY.
...the" misguided scientific endeavors" point? Or the "pointless intellectual pursuits" point? ;p
DeleteBoth.
DeleteIf your goals is wrong -- no wind is good for your ship.
...and in good governance, so is 'negative' liberty... a space from which its' 'positive' injunctions are absent (like Capitalism 'Enjoy!)'.
Deleteaka an inviolable 'Bill of Rights' of the individual.
Delete...currently be violated under FISA. :(
DeleteWhatever.
DeletePEOPLE *WANT* IT!!! THEMSELF.
There is no "I" in "team".
Delete...there is only the quadriga running.
DeleteThen... that is mindless crowd. And not team.
DeleteTeam DEPEND on personal ability and special trait of each member (probably even janitor counts)
Crowd, cares only about numbers...
And today world is more like crowd, not team.
Because of WRONG phylosophy.
All is pretty damn simple.
Delete//Funny... I was there for the $$$. Like Faustus, I sold my soul for rock & roll...
ReplyDeleteYour understanding of that Old World Wisdom... is so funnily twisted. You really are from opposite hemishere.
It all UPSIDE DOWN. Dr.Faust sold his soul in exchange for eternity of scientific and practical endeavour (totally my point).
And the catch was -- it will continue ONLY till young and briming of health dr.Haus... err, Dr.Faust will STOP preaching your Job.s mantra "Always Be Hungry", and will say " Or, stop this moment, you are beautiful (totally your point, as I understand it).
So. You are Mephistophel here. And NOT Faustus.;-p
No, my cat is the one named "Mephistofoles"....
DeleteAnd had Faustus sold his soul purely for scientific endeavors (struggle), he would have remained an alchemist. Instead he sold it for the pleasurable "experiences" (not in books, not from 'surplus jouissance') that 'follow' such discoveries that the devil offered and that come from reaping the rewards of said knowledge.
Like devil would propose FAIR deal. ;-p
DeleteWould a loving god?
DeleteAre you satanist? ;-p
DeleteA Deist. My G_d created the Universe and merely watches, and laughs.
DeleteThat's compatible with Lem's views.
DeleteNO! That is like direct citation from that text about virtual world.
//No... mine wasn't a 1/4 argument, it's a 4/4 argument. You need all 4 elements...
ReplyDeleteAnd I cleverly laughed it out.
With pointing that you'd need to start ti produce miracles, to achieve that desired effect.
Means -- it's impractical -- in and out.
And you know it. But. Because of your self-deceptive escapism still trying to reassure me here that you really pursuing such goal.
Yawn.
Virtue is four elements, not one. Each stands in 'opposition' to the others. Remove one, and the structure collapses.
Deletecourage:temperance::wisdom:justice.
meden agan!
Wisdom reduced to cleverness... to cunning... to chicanery.... to individual "intelligences" absent the "collective". The "wisdom" of crowds.... of "piloting" the quadriga.
Delete:P
DeleteWhatever
DeleteThe great gods, much like Isaiah Berlin's Great Goods are incommensurable. They must wrestle and contend with one another until a people finds the right combinations needed to achieve the desired results. A society must rally around the quadriga (or in Jacob's case, a single G_d of Israel)... in which the Christians derived a Trinity.
Delete...one with 4 "cardinal' virtues.
DeleteWhatever.
DeleteYawn.
Faith... to bind one's-self with. Religion. Re-legio. To re-tie/ bind. Like in the Vatican's flag... tieing the gold and silver keys together... and not reducing oneself to a Javanese Mannequin with lead and dross.
DeleteYep.
DeleteYet one type of chains of slavery.
You may choose your own poison.
DeletePoison makes one dead. Means -- free.
DeleteYawn.
You can escape death?
DeleteA little poison now and then: that makes for pleasant dreams. And much poison at the end for a pleasant death
- Nietzsche, "Zarathustra"
//Does that sound like the career of a "Space" oriented devotee?
ReplyDeleteIt looks like a career of an engineer who love his craft of tinkering.;-p
I can empatise with that -- as that is what I tryed to achieve in my life too.
Though... was far less lucky..
or, who knows...
My elder brother was the tinkerer in the family, not me. I did love to watch him.
DeleteHe went to the Academy... so I followed him (even though West Point was also an option for me). He was a 12th alternate from California... and I had two nominations and was selected in for immediate admission.
DeleteOf course to his credit, he attended at the height of the Draft (Vietnam) and I the year Saigon fell. He had more competition for the slot (college draft deferral). He actually went to Saigon though as a cadet.
Delete//My elder brother was the tinkerer in the family, not me. I did love to watch him.
DeleteWhatever. That's how "genes of society" working.
//Specialization requires ample communication. Secretiveness does not contribute to openness. Open Source vs. Proprietary. Teams also require coordination. And an adjudication process to resolve "incommensurabilities". ;p
ReplyDeleteTop to bottom -- all BS.
Reality is such -- nobody know how and why it works.
Yawn.
Why not just sit back and let all Information be commodified by the technofeudal lords? It also commodifies all the labour, simultaneously. For free "labour" becomes the "product" of all cloud serfs. Why do you insist on becoming a cloud vassal?
DeleteComment to this was eaten by Ctulhu.
DeleteGo salvage it from its jaws. ;-p
I will not reproduce it.
Not there. Talk to the NSA/ USIC.
Delete//...and I thought that YOU were Lem's alter-ego... ;p
ReplyDeleteHow comes?
You know his work. You quote him. You reference his ideas and ideology. He's your ego-ideal. You want to "be him" or "be LIKE him"... hence alter-ego. You seldom quote anyone else.
DeleteThe only difference is that Lem knew that he was writing fiction... whereas you believe you can make his fiction real. You have much more faith in humanity and science than I do. 30 years with NASA have made me cynical.
DeleteI see them as Jonathan Swift did in Gulliver's Travels... as a Grand Academy at Lagado variant.
DeleteOf course, if you had read Peter Sloterdijk's "A Critique of Cynical Reason" you might understand why I'm wrong in being so cynical. I think I understand "psychology".... the curse of post-modernism.
Delete...and so my comments typically reflect both cynicism AND kynicism.
Delete...and worse, I was also trained in my undergraduate days in Asimov's "Foundational" art of Psychohistory by professor Jacques Szaluta and attended Asimov's lecture at the Academy during my Plebe year.
DeleteAs you know, Lem hated American SciFi writers like Asimov.
Szaluta... hand salute!
Delete//The only difference is that Lem knew that he was writing fiction...
ReplyDeleteLike his Magnum Opus I failed to interest you in... sigh.
He wrote exoterically, too? A modern Machiavelli...
Delete//The only difference is that Lem knew that he was writing fiction...
ReplyDeleteI??? Not.
I explained it from very beginning -- that mission is NOT for a mere individual.
Even a billionere.
But for well established orgabization -- it could be some spare time project for some trainees.
Yawn.
But. I am NOT american student. And cannot find USA side solicitor/mentor for anything like that.
Yawn/sigh.
By obvious reason. "Not invented here".
Organization like NASA.
DeleteThey even have some outlets for such projects -- like perspective plans of future space exploration.
But.
I. As foreigner. Powerless and poor. Have ni access what so ever. To attend such things.
Yawn.
Have you submitted a grant request? You can't get recognized for actions you fail to take. NASA works with foreign governments. Submit one to yours. Get an international Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between governments. NASA might give your project a free ride to Space or give you a partner to work with.
DeleteLagado's Academy has LOTS of foreign partners.
Delete//You have much more faith in humanity and science than I do. 30 years with NASA have made me cynical.
ReplyDeleteNot faith.
Pragmatism.
Technology-style -- if something not work right away -- maybe there is a way to workaround it.
To make some gizmo. Like your popular culture shows inventors and invention process. And eggheads in general.
Like in the beginning of "Back to the Future" movie.
Or. Whole Jimmy Neutron cartoon/series.
You can't make the gizmo? Why not?
Delete//You seldom quote anyone else.
ReplyDeleteBecause... I cannot do "everything, everywhere and at once".
Yawn.
And even if I'd do -- woukd YOU comprehand it?
It got me near THREE years to pass at least SOMETHING... from my mind into yours.
Obviously not.
Delete//Fine. Don't like the words natural and artificial.
ReplyDeleteThat's not about like or dislike -- I just cannot get your context.
Look how *I* did it. Provided lots of context based on Lem's works.
Here's some context "Jean Jacques Rousseau". Try 'Emile'.
DeleteFrom Google: Rousseau begins the Second Discourse by distinguishing two kinds of inequality, natural and artificial, the first arising from differences in strength, intelligence, and so forth, the second from the conventions that govern societies. It is the inequalities of the latter sort that he set out to explain.
DeleteThe entire Enlightenment Project was an attempt to define "Natural Law".
Delete//How about necessary and unnecessary.
ReplyDeleteThat depends on intellectual agent.
You can't frame the "necessity" of different forms of mathematics for an accountant vs. a painter? Statistics/Algebra vs. geometry/trig?
DeleteYap.
DeleteI can't frame BS... apart from calling it out -- being BS.
Yawn.
Well, for you to not feel that I just barking at you.
Painters do not use trigonometry -- they use branch of Geometry callef Projective Geometry. ;-)
//Not every "task" is necessary for the persistence of the organism.
ReplyDeleteEvolution -- do not care about organizms.
It "cares" only about whole population.
And even about em, in very hand down way -+ dinos are the truth tellers.
Best example.
DeleteEvery 'species' eventually goes extinct due to changing environmental conditions. You can't adapt to "all of them" or every planet would bear "life". In other words, there are no "whole populations". there are only individual examples with varying adaptability capabilities.
Delete//Every 'species' eventually goes extinct due to changing environmental conditions.
DeleteThat's depend on how you define 'specie'.
Are pakicets (ancestors of modern whales) are same specie as orcas and dolphins?
Are we humans are same speice with all moden primats???
You know TOO DAMN LITTLE to start talking about such thing.
(that doesn't mean that *I* know... but I, do not try)
KPCOFGS - Kings Play Chess on Fine Grain Sand. Sand-Species. Go up the chain as high as you need to to find your links. Ultimately no two individuals (except monozygotic twins) are alike. And yes, feel free to map all the "extinctions" to it. It's all "assembly theory" after all...
Delete//As you know, Lem hated American SciFi writers like Asimov.
ReplyDeleteYawn.
All is upside down. In your world.
That is American scifi writer disliked Lem. Well, one particilar writer.
Because Lem's relentless critique... was too much for their feable minds. ;-p
Perhaps the conditions of "capitalism" in America were beyond Lem's feeble ken.... 'jes' sayin'.
DeleteFor years the people who run boxing have ridden two axioms by P.T. Barnum all the way to the bank. The first being there's a sucker born every minute. And the second is that no one ever went broke overestimating the intelligence of the American people
DeleteLem (and you) might be the first.
// You reference his ideas and ideology.
ReplyDeleteThen... I incredulously crafty -- to refer to something that do not exist.)))))
Lem's ideology.
// He's your ego-ideal. You want to "be him" or "be LIKE him"... hence alter-ego.
Grow old and NOT see own prediction became reality? Not making am real? Not recieving for at least some FAME for being so wise?
Well, in a coloquial meaning both I and Lem are total losers
)))
But I, still have some time before me.
Oh yes, we live in a post-ideological age... @@
DeleteSlavoj Žižek is a philosopher who argues that the world is not post-ideological, but rather in an "archideological" state. He believes that the idea of a post-ideological age is a fantasy that gives voice to the dominance of current ideologies.
Explanation:
Žižek believes that people are so entrenched in dominant ideologies that they can't see them. For example, many people believe that modern liberal capitalism is the only way to organize society.
Žižek argues that this belief is an example of ideology in action. He believes that ideologies are self-sustaining and difficult to critique or escape.
Žižek's work on ideology includes The Sublime Object of Ideology (1989). In this work, he argues that capitalism and liberal democracy maintain their functioning by constructing self-naturalizing beliefs and practices.
Slavoj Žižek's concept of "archideological" fantasy is the idea that the belief that our world is post-ideological is actually an illusion. Žižek is a philosopher who argues that ideology is still a major force in our lives, and that it's expressed through the way people treat others.
DeleteExplanation:
Žižek believes that ideology is made up of fictions that structure political life. These fictions are often unconscious, and can be expressed in people's behavior.
Žižek argues that ideology is not just a system of mistaken beliefs, but rather a way of representing power relations.
Žižek's work focuses on identifying contradictions in capitalism and its democratic-liberal ideology. He also explores the problem of enjoyment as a political factor.
Žižek's concept of "archideological" fantasy is a way of describing the demonization of others and the exclusion of outsiders that he sees in contemporary society.
Lem's ideology was simple. He hated (from experience) the "ethics of kitsch". America is the home to the ethics of kitsch par excellence. This was starkly reflected in American SciFi and its' endless cowboys vs. indians style.
DeleteAll that the American's need to become like the "Nazi's" is a Provocation...
DeleteThe Nazi's modelled their anti-Jewish laws after the American South's "Jim Crow" laws. You saw a "provocation" in Pearl Harbor and the resulting Japanese Internment camps. All it would have taken for a genocide to occur would have been an executive Order for a "final solution".
Delete...after all, only humans "kill" their rivals. Other animals are satisfied in dominating them.
DeleteOne example from America's out-of-control "ethics of kitsch".
Delete//...after all, only humans "kill" their rivals. Other animals are satisfied in dominating them.
ReplyDeleteAs always -- BS.
Lions do infanticide.
And tasmania devils... canibals.
Yawn.
//Lem's ideology was simple. He hated (from experience) the "ethics of kitsch". America is the home to the ethics of kitsch par excellence.
ReplyDeleteHe laughed from you. That's true.
But hated he soviet communism. Even though was apt for communistic ideas in his youth.
// This was starkly reflected in American SciFi and its' endless cowboys vs. indians style.
That's NOT why he criticized it.
//These fictions are often unconscious, and can be expressed in people's behavior.
ReplyDeleteHah.
For at least... he able to see elephant in the room.
But still not log in his own eye.
That's why I deny him being phylosopher. Or some prominent thinker.
Yawn.
//Perhaps the conditions of "capitalism" in America were beyond Lem's feeble ken.... 'jes' sayin'.
ReplyDeleteWell. He was not an economist.
Same as I am not a dantist.
So, both our opinions: my about your teeth and Lem's about USA economy would be feeble and even lame.
But, you know -- we did state nothing about such things.
Yawn.
Because smart people -- do not try to talk about things they freakingly dunno about... like they are people of knowledge in that spheras.
Bleh.
That's more signifying in a bechavior of people, other people colloquially call... you know -- fools.