“They saw their injured country's woe;
The flaming town, the wasted field;
Then rushed to meet the insulting foe;
They took the spear, - but left the shield.”
―Philip Freneau
.
And by a prudent flight and cunning save A life which valour could not, from the grave. A better buckler I can soon regain, But who can get another life again?
Archilochus
//Responded elsewhere. I still don't understand what definition of Turchin's you're comparing to...
You... would not like it, I profess... too technological. Yawn.
Best real world example of it -- genome duplication -- two steps process: at first, just a numeral increase (duplication), but then -- future specialization.
Valentin Turchin (1931–2008) was a prominent Soviet cyberneticist, computer scientist, and political dissident whose philosophy is most famously articulated in his foundational 1977 treatise, The Phenomenon of Science: A Cybernetic Approach to Human Evolution.
IMEKO +2 The Core Concepts Turchin’s cybernetic worldview blends evolutionary biology, systems theory, and the philosophy of mind into a cohesive, grand-scale framework. His key contributions to cybernetic philosophy include:
meta2014.pereslavl.ru Metasystem Transition (MST): Turchin’s central evolutionary thesis. It argues that evolution occurs in leaps when a system’s control mechanisms are integrated into a higher-level "metasystem". For example, the emergence of multi-cellular organisms from single cells, or the development of human language, culture, and eventually artificial intelligence are all metasystem transitions. The Global Brain: Turchin, alongside contemporaries like Francis Heylighen (with whom he co-founded the Principia Cybernetica Project), posited that human society is forming a planetary, neural-like network. In this framework, human minds act as the processing nodes connected by global communication systems, representing the next "quantum" leap in cosmic evolution. Refal and Supercompilation: A brilliant computer scientist as well as a philosopher, Turchin created the functional programming language Refal. To optimize this language, he invented "supercompilation"—an advanced method of program transformation and optimization.
Academia.edu +2 Major Works To explore Turchin's cybernetic legacy, consider these key texts: The Phenomenon of Science (1977): Available to read via Columbia University Press, this is his magnum opus. It details how the scientific method represents humanity's cybernetic adaptation to the world. The Inertia of Fear (1981): A political treatise that analyzes the Soviet system using cybernetic principles and power dynamics, detailing the mechanisms of totalitarian control and dissident resistance. The Cybernetic Foundation of Mathematics (1983): An exploration of mathematical constructivism where mathematical objects are treated as formal linguistic processes.
Academia.edu +3 Relation to Stanislaw Lem's "Summa" Turchin's sweeping, evolutionary synthesis of technology and biology is frequently compared to Polish science fiction author and futurologist Stanislaw Lem’s philosophical masterpiece, Summa Technologiae (1964). Both works explore the limits of human evolution, the future of artificial intelligence, and the eventual transition of humanity into post-biological, self-regulating cybernetic systems
Wow, I was WAY off. I thought that the reference was to Peter Turchin... @@
And yes, Valentin's theory seems to be a precursor to IIT (Integrated Information Theory)
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integrated information theory vs valentin turchin's theories Integrated Information Theory (IIT) and Valentin Turchin's Cybernetic Philosophy are both influential frameworks that use information and systems theory to explain complexity, but they target entirely different problems. While Giulio Tononi's IIT is a mathematical theory of conscious experience focused on what makes a specific system conscious in the present moment, Valentin Turchin's work is an evolutionary-cybernetic theory of growth focused on how systems transition into higher levels of control over time.
Vrije Universiteit Brussel +3 Here is a direct comparison of how these two theories stack up against each other: Structural Comparison Feature Integrated Information Theory (IIT) Valentin Turchin's Cybernetic Theories Primary Goal Explaining and measuring subjective consciousness. Explaining the evolution of complex, intelligent systems. Core Concept (Phi): The quantity of integrated information in a mechanism. Metasystem Transition (MST): The emergence of a new control tier. System View Internalist: Looks at causal power from the system's own perspective. Functionalist: Looks at how a system controls its environment. Direction Static/Mechanistic: Evaluates a system's state at any fixed point in time. Directional/Evolutionary: Charts the cosmic path of complexification. Scope Limitation Aggregates do not possess consciousness; it exists only at the local maximum. Systems can scale infinitely upward into a global super-being.
Core Conceptual Differences 1. Consciousness vs. Control IIT (Tononi): Asserts that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe. Any system with a causal structure that generates a non-zero value of integrated information ( ) experiences a degree of consciousness. It is entirely focused on the internal experience. Turchin: Asserts that life and intelligence are driven by the need for survival and control. His philosophy, detailed in The Phenomenon of Science, views evolution as a series of cybernetic leaps where a new mechanism steps in to manage and direct lower-level systems. It is entirely focused on external agency.
Vrije Universiteit Brussel +5 2. The Exclusion Principle vs. Scaling Up IIT's Exclusion Principle: Dictates that consciousness only exists at the level of the system where reaches its absolute maximum. Because individual human brains have a much higher than a collection of people, a crowd, a corporation, or a society cannot be conscious under IIT. The crowd does not have its own consciousness; only the individual people inside it do. Turchin's Metasystem Transitions: Proposes that individual systems naturally merge to create a brand-new "metasystem" layer. Turchin explicitly argued that human society is transitioning toward a social super-being or a global brain. In his view, higher organization naturally moves upward from cells, to multicellular organisms, to human culture, and eventually to planetary-scale networks.
organism.earth +4 3. Mathematical Quantification vs. Qualitative Leaps IIT: Relies on rigorous, formal mathematics. It calculates by assessing cause-effect repertoires and measuring how much information is lost if you slice a system along its weakest minimum information partition. Turchin: Focuses on a qualitative, step-by-step logic of evolution. His transitions follow a distinct pattern:
Each step represents a creative, unpredictable leap where a control loop is duplicated and integrated.
ResearchGate +2 How They Complement Each Other While they diverge on many points, they can be woven together to understand the future of intelligence. Turchin provides the evolutionary blueprint for how a system like the Global Brain physically and socially organizes itself through history. Meanwhile, IIT provides the mathematical diagnostic tools to check whether that emerging network is actually developing its own unified internal experience, or if it remains a highly complex, yet unconscious web of parts.
13 comments:
//Responded elsewhere. I still don't understand what definition of Turchin's you're comparing to...
You... would not like it, I profess...
too technological. Yawn.
Best real world example of it -- genome duplication -- two steps process: at first, just a numeral increase (duplication), but then -- future specialization.
Valentin Turchin (1931–2008) was a prominent Soviet cyberneticist, computer scientist, and political dissident whose philosophy is most famously articulated in his foundational 1977 treatise, The Phenomenon of Science: A Cybernetic Approach to Human Evolution.
IMEKO
+2
The Core Concepts
Turchin’s cybernetic worldview blends evolutionary biology, systems theory, and the philosophy of mind into a cohesive, grand-scale framework. His key contributions to cybernetic philosophy include:
meta2014.pereslavl.ru
Metasystem Transition (MST): Turchin’s central evolutionary thesis. It argues that evolution occurs in leaps when a system’s control mechanisms are integrated into a higher-level "metasystem". For example, the emergence of multi-cellular organisms from single cells, or the development of human language, culture, and eventually artificial intelligence are all metasystem transitions.
The Global Brain: Turchin, alongside contemporaries like Francis Heylighen (with whom he co-founded the Principia Cybernetica Project), posited that human society is forming a planetary, neural-like network. In this framework, human minds act as the processing nodes connected by global communication systems, representing the next "quantum" leap in cosmic evolution.
Refal and Supercompilation: A brilliant computer scientist as well as a philosopher, Turchin created the functional programming language Refal. To optimize this language, he invented "supercompilation"—an advanced method of program transformation and optimization.
Academia.edu
+2
Major Works
To explore Turchin's cybernetic legacy, consider these key texts:
The Phenomenon of Science (1977): Available to read via Columbia University Press, this is his magnum opus. It details how the scientific method represents humanity's cybernetic adaptation to the world.
The Inertia of Fear (1981): A political treatise that analyzes the Soviet system using cybernetic principles and power dynamics, detailing the mechanisms of totalitarian control and dissident resistance.
The Cybernetic Foundation of Mathematics (1983): An exploration of mathematical constructivism where mathematical objects are treated as formal linguistic processes.
Academia.edu
+3
Relation to Stanislaw Lem's "Summa"
Turchin's sweeping, evolutionary synthesis of technology and biology is frequently compared to Polish science fiction author and futurologist Stanislaw Lem’s philosophical masterpiece, Summa Technologiae (1964). Both works explore the limits of human evolution, the future of artificial intelligence, and the eventual transition of humanity into post-biological, self-regulating cybernetic systems
Wow, I was WAY off. I thought that the reference was to Peter Turchin... @@
And yes, Valentin's theory seems to be a precursor to IIT (Integrated Information Theory)
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Forums
Shopping
News
More
integrated information theory vs valentin turchin's theories
Integrated Information Theory (IIT) and Valentin Turchin's Cybernetic Philosophy are both influential frameworks that use information and systems theory to explain complexity, but they target entirely different problems. While Giulio Tononi's IIT is a mathematical theory of conscious experience focused on what makes a specific system conscious in the present moment, Valentin Turchin's work is an evolutionary-cybernetic theory of growth focused on how systems transition into higher levels of control over time.
Vrije Universiteit Brussel
+3
Here is a direct comparison of how these two theories stack up against each other:
Structural Comparison
Feature Integrated Information Theory (IIT) Valentin Turchin's Cybernetic Theories
Primary Goal Explaining and measuring subjective consciousness. Explaining the evolution of complex, intelligent systems.
Core Concept
(Phi): The quantity of integrated information in a mechanism. Metasystem Transition (MST): The emergence of a new control tier.
System View Internalist: Looks at causal power from the system's own perspective. Functionalist: Looks at how a system controls its environment.
Direction Static/Mechanistic: Evaluates a system's state at any fixed point in time. Directional/Evolutionary: Charts the cosmic path of complexification.
Scope Limitation Aggregates do not possess consciousness; it exists only at the local maximum. Systems can scale infinitely upward into a global super-being.
Core Conceptual Differences
1. Consciousness vs. Control
IIT (Tononi): Asserts that consciousness is a fundamental property of the universe. Any system with a causal structure that generates a non-zero value of integrated information (
) experiences a degree of consciousness. It is entirely focused on the internal experience.
Turchin: Asserts that life and intelligence are driven by the need for survival and control. His philosophy, detailed in The Phenomenon of Science, views evolution as a series of cybernetic leaps where a new mechanism steps in to manage and direct lower-level systems. It is entirely focused on external agency.
Vrije Universiteit Brussel
+5
2. The Exclusion Principle vs. Scaling Up
IIT's Exclusion Principle: Dictates that consciousness only exists at the level of the system where
reaches its absolute maximum. Because individual human brains have a much higher
than a collection of people, a crowd, a corporation, or a society cannot be conscious under IIT. The crowd does not have its own consciousness; only the individual people inside it do.
Turchin's Metasystem Transitions: Proposes that individual systems naturally merge to create a brand-new "metasystem" layer. Turchin explicitly argued that human society is transitioning toward a social super-being or a global brain. In his view, higher organization naturally moves upward from cells, to multicellular organisms, to human culture, and eventually to planetary-scale networks.
organism.earth
+4
3. Mathematical Quantification vs. Qualitative Leaps
IIT: Relies on rigorous, formal mathematics. It calculates
by assessing cause-effect repertoires and measuring how much information is lost if you slice a system along its weakest minimum information partition.
Turchin: Focuses on a qualitative, step-by-step logic of evolution. His transitions follow a distinct pattern:
Each step represents a creative, unpredictable leap where a control loop is duplicated and integrated.
ResearchGate
+2
How They Complement Each Other
While they diverge on many points, they can be woven together to understand the future of intelligence. Turchin provides the evolutionary blueprint for how a system like the Global Brain physically and socially organizes itself through history. Meanwhile, IIT provides the mathematical diagnostic tools to check whether that emerging network is actually developing its own unified internal experience, or if it remains a highly complex, yet unconscious web of parts.
//and eventually to planetary-scale networks.
and extra-planetary...
...but not "conscious".
At least, not without neuralinks.
The "inability" to tell "inside" from "outside". To understand where the entity's Markov blanket boundary is.
To extend the Markov blanket boundary to an interplanetary scale.
We are Borg...
...returned to possessing a bicameral mind by wearing "God helmets" or "Neuralinks".
:P
Me...
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