Saturday, June 8, 2024

The Photo-Molecular Effect

Just one more reason why your Climate Model doesn't work.

David L. Chandler, "How light can vaporize water without the need for heat"
Surprising “photomolecular effect” discovered by MIT researchers could affect calculations of climate change and may lead to improved desalination and drying processes.

It’s the most fundamental of processes — the evaporation of water from the surfaces of oceans and lakes, the burning off of fog in the morning sun, and the drying of briny ponds that leaves solid salt behind. Evaporation is all around us, and humans have been observing it and making use of it for as long as we have existed.

And yet, it turns out, we’ve been missing a major part of the picture all along.

In a series of painstakingly precise experiments, a team of researchers at MIT has demonstrated that heat isn’t alone in causing water to evaporate. Light, striking the water’s surface where air and water meet, can break water molecules away and float them into the air, causing evaporation in the absence of any source of heat.

The astonishing new discovery could have a wide range of significant implications. It could help explain mysterious measurements over the years of how sunlight affects clouds, and therefore affect calculations of the effects of climate change on cloud cover and precipitation. It could also lead to new ways of designing industrial processes such as solar-powered desalination or drying of materials.

The findings, and the many different lines of evidence that demonstrate the reality of the phenomenon and the details of how it works, are described today in the journal PNAS, in a paper by Carl Richard Soderberg Professor of Power Engineering Gang Chen, postdocs Guangxin Lv and Yaodong Tu, and graduate student James Zhang.

The authors say their study suggests that the effect should happen widely in nature— everywhere from clouds to fogs to the surfaces of oceans, soils, and plants — and that it could also lead to new practical applications, including in energy and clean water production. “I think this has a lot of applications,” Chen says. “We’re exploring all these different directions. And of course, it also affects the basic science, like the effects of clouds on climate, because clouds are the most uncertain aspect of climate models.”

A newfound phenomenon

The new work builds on research reported last year, which described this new “photomolecular effect” but only under very specialized conditions: on the surface of specially prepared hydrogels soaked with water. In the new study, the researchers demonstrate that the hydrogel is not necessary for the process; it occurs at any water surface exposed to light, whether it’s a flat surface like a body of water or a curved surface like a droplet of cloud vapor.

Because the effect was so unexpected, the team worked to prove its existence with as many different lines of evidence as possible. In this study, they report 14 different kinds of tests and measurements they carried out to establish that water was indeed evaporating — that is, molecules of water were being knocked loose from the water’s surface and wafted into the air — due to the light alone, not by heat, which was long assumed to be the only mechanism involved.

One key indicator, which showed up consistently in four different kinds of experiments under different conditions, was that as the water began to evaporate from a test container under visible light, the air temperature measured above the water’s surface cooled down and then leveled off, showing that thermal energy was not the driving force behind the effect.

Other key indicators that showed up included the way the evaporation effect varied depending on the angle of the light, the exact color of the light, and its polarization. None of these varying characteristics should happen because at these wavelengths, water hardly absorbs light at all — and yet the researchers observed them.

The effect is strongest when light hits the water surface at an angle of 45 degrees. It is also strongest with a certain type of polarization, called transverse magnetic polarization. And it peaks in green light — which, oddly, is the color for which water is most transparent and thus interacts the least.

Chen and his co-researchers have proposed a physical mechanism that can explain the angle and polarization dependence of the effect, showing that the photons of light can impart a net force on water molecules at the water surface that is sufficient to knock them loose from the body of water. But they cannot yet account for the color dependence, which they say will require further study.

They have named this the photomolecular effect, by analogy with the photoelectric effect that was discovered by Heinrich Hertz in 1887 and finally explained by Albert Einstein in 1905. That effect was one of the first demonstrations that light also has particle characteristics, which had major implications in physics and led to a wide variety of applications, including LEDs. Just as the photoelectric effect liberates electrons from atoms in a material in response to being hit by a photon of light, the photomolecular effect shows that photons can liberate entire molecules from a liquid surface, the researchers say.

“The finding of evaporation caused by light instead of heat provides new disruptive knowledge of light-water interaction,” says Xiulin Ruan, professor of mechanical engineering at Purdue University, who was not involved in the study. “It could help us gain new understanding of how sunlight interacts with cloud, fog, oceans, and other natural water bodies to affect weather and climate. It has significant potential practical applications such as high-performance water desalination driven by solar energy. This research is among the rare group of truly revolutionary discoveries which are not widely accepted by the community right away but take time, sometimes a long time, to be confirmed.”

Solving a cloud conundrum

The finding may solve an 80-year-old mystery in climate science. Measurements of how clouds absorb sunlight have often shown that they are absorbing more sunlight than conventional physics dictates possible. The additional evaporation caused by this effect could account for the longstanding discrepancy, which has been a subject of dispute since such measurements are difficult to make.

“Those experiments are based on satellite data and flight data,“ Chen explains. “They fly an airplane on top of and below the clouds, and there are also data based on the ocean temperature and radiation balance. And they all conclude that there is more absorption by clouds than theory could calculate. However, due to the complexity of clouds and the difficulties of making such measurements, researchers have been debating whether such discrepancies are real or not. And what we discovered suggests that hey, there’s another mechanism for cloud absorption, which was not accounted for, and this mechanism might explain the discrepancies.”

Chen says he recently spoke about the phenomenon at an American Physical Society conference, and one physicist there who studies clouds and climate said they had never thought about this possibility, which could affect calculations of the complex effects of clouds on climate. The team conducted experiments using LEDs shining on an artificial cloud chamber, and they observed heating of the fog, which was not supposed to happen since water does not absorb in the visible spectrum. “Such heating can be explained based on the photomolecular effect more easily,” he says.

Lv says that of the many lines of evidence, “the flat region in the air-side temperature distribution above hot water will be the easiest for people to reproduce.” That temperature profile “is a signature” that demonstrates the effect clearly, he says.

Zhang adds: “It is quite hard to explain how this kind of flat temperature profile comes about without invoking some other mechanism” beyond the accepted theories of thermal evaporation. “It ties together what a whole lot of people are reporting in their solar desalination devices,” which again show evaporation rates that cannot be explained by the thermal input.

The effect can be substantial. Under the optimum conditions of color, angle, and polarization, Lv says, “the evaporation rate is four times the thermal limit.”

Already, since publication of the first paper, the team has been approached by companies that hope to harness the effect, Chen says, including for evaporating syrup and drying paper in a paper mill. The likeliest first applications will come in the areas of solar desalinization systems or other industrial drying processes, he says. “Drying consumes 20 percent of all industrial energy usage,” he points out.

Because the effect is so new and unexpected, Chen says, “This phenomenon should be very general, and our experiment is really just the beginning.” The experiments needed to demonstrate and quantify the effect are very time-consuming. “There are many variables, from understanding water itself, to extending to other materials, other liquids and even solids,” he says.

“The observations in the manuscript points to a new physical mechanism that foundationally alters our thinking on the kinetics of evaporation,” says Shannon Yee, an associate professor of mechanical engineering at Georgia Tech, who was not associated with this work. He adds, “Who would have thought that we are still learning about something as quotidian as water evaporating?”

“I think this work is very significant scientifically because it presents a new mechanism,” says University of Alberta Distinguished Professor Janet A.W. Elliott, who also was not associated with this work. “It may also turn out to be practically important for technology and our understanding of nature, because evaporation of water is ubiquitous and the effect appears to deliver significantly higher evaporation rates than the known thermal mechanism. … My overall impression is this work is outstanding. It appears to be carefully done with many precise experiments lending support for one another.”

The work was partly supported by an MIT Bose Award. The authors are currently working on ways to make use of this effect for water desalination, in a project funded by the Abdul Latif Jameel Water and Food Systems Lab and the MIT-UMRP program.

255 comments:

  1. \\Light, striking the water’s surface where air and water meet, can break water molecules away and float them into the air, causing evaporation in the absence of any source of heat.

    And why I know that... from long ago???

    ReplyDelete
  2. You knew that it broke it apart in clumps of molecules that would later separate in the air with 1/4 the initial input energy?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Quantum leap? ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  4. Well... I know that it works even on high scale -- there is such a "stohastic" orbits... that allow to "quantum leap" from Earth orbit and into Moon orbit for example... without that much energy needed.

    That thing I was reading in paper journals... ALAIR.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Redistribution of latent heat of vaporization from liquid to air side.

    ReplyDelete
  6. So??? Thermodynamics? ;-P

    Is a lost art in USA. And need to be re-discovered? :-)

    ReplyDelete
  7. Apparently. But it requires a new Sadi (or Lazare) Carnot.

    ReplyDelete
  8. You believe in cycles of History??? :-)

    HOW?????!!!

    ReplyDelete
  9. Game of Life? ;-P

    ReplyDelete
  10. So... now we came to Square One, isn't it?

    Back to my point -- that Evolution, is most advanced tech. ;-)

    To make an Ovo.

    ReplyDelete
  11. To reach closest star? ;-P

    Well... that techs need to be developed, yet. ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  12. Speed of light is, to the best of all available knowledge, a hard limit. Unless you can fold space, or suspend time, good luck with that.

    ReplyDelete
  13. E-x-a-c-t-l-y.

    But... do we need to continue to be just a clever monkeys??? And try to do what is impossible... again and again, again and again, again and again, again and again, again and again, again and again, again and again, again and again, again and again, again and again...

    Or... agan and agan, agan and agan, agan and agan, agan and agan. ;-P

    ReplyDelete
  14. And not just... break that rules! ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  15. That endless cycle of idiocy.

    ReplyDelete
  16. \\Speed of light is, to the best of all available knowledge, a hard limit. Unless you can fold space, or suspend time, good luck with that.

    ???

    There's -- hibernation. Uploading mind into computer.

    And who know what else possible solutions. ;-P

    Oh how to workaround it with smart engineering. ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  17. Yeah... we cannot be just monkeys... anymore.

    Yawn.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Speak for yourself. Meden agan. Regression to the mean.

    ReplyDelete
  19. :-))))))))))))))))))))

    Know how to achieve that? ;-P

    Or... you'll just declare whatever you have as "perfect"? ;-P

    Like liliPut doing just now.

    From "3 day to Kiev"... to third year of meat grinding. :-)))))))))))))))))))))0

    And that is branded as "that's exactly in accordance with Plan".

    ReplyDelete

  20. Koyaanisqatsi
    Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Koyaanisqatsi
    Koyaanisqatsi from en.wikipedia.org
    Koyaanisqatsi is a 1982 American non-narrative documentary film directed and produced by Godfrey Reggio, featuring music composed by Philip Glass and ...

    ReplyDelete
  21. Shots of microchips and satellite photography of cities are shown, comparing the lay of each of them. Night shots of buildings are shown, as well as of people from all walks of life, from beggars to debutantes. A rocket in flight explodes, and the camera follows one of its engines as it falls back towards Earth. The film concludes with another image of the Great Gallery pictograph, this time with smaller figures.

    Preceding the closing credits, the end title card shows five translations of the Hopi word koyaanisqatsi:[1]

    "crazy life""life in turmoil""life out of balance""life disintegrating""a state of life that calls for another way of living"
    The following screen shows a translation of the three Hopi prophecies sung in the final segment of the film:[1]

    "If we dig precious things from the land, we will invite disaster."[c]

    "Near the Day of Purification, there will be cobwebs spun back and forth in the sky."[d]

    "A container of ashes might one day be thrown from the sky, which could burn the land and boil the oceans."[e]

    Over the end credits, the sound of human voices overlapping on television broadcasts can be heard.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Well... watching it, is better.

    Though, I prefer Anima Mundi.

    Well... it need to be in quiet and peaceful atmosphere and calm perceptive mind...

    (see, I also can do it ;-))

    ReplyDelete
  23. Rousseau sent Voltaire a copy of his "The Social Contract" and Voltaire wrote him the following: "I have received your new book against the human race, and thank you for it. Never was such a cleverness used in the design of making us all stupid. One longs, in reading your book, to walk on all fours.

    ;)

    ReplyDelete
  24. Yeah.

    That's my payback for you giving me refs to some vids. ;-P

    ReplyDelete
  25. Gracias.

    And now for something completely different from Don Quixote?

    Examples like this indicate an approach to uptopias which leaves behind the usual focus on content (on the structure of society proposed in a utopian vision). Perhaps it is time to step back from the fascination with content and reflect upon the subjective position from which such content appears utopian. On account of its temporal loop, the fantasmatic narrative always involves an impossible gaze, the gaze by means of which the subject is already present at the scene of its' own absence. When the subject directly identifies its own gaze with the objet a, the paradoxical implication of this identification is that the objet a disappears from the field of vision. This brings us to the core Lacanian notion of utopia: a vision of desire functioning without an objet a and its twists and loops. It is utopian not only to think that one can reach full, unencumbered "incestuous" enjoyment; for it is no less utopian to think that one can renounce enjoyment without this renunciation generating its' own surplus-enjoyment.
    - Slavoj Zizek, "Living in the End Times"

    ReplyDelete
  26. \\Don Quixote

    You surely know, that it all... was a parody? ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  27. Well... how'd you like Anima Mundi

    ReplyDelete
  28. II respiro, la Vita, lo Spiritio, l'Anima del Mondo

    "...questo mondo e davvero un esse viviente fornito di anima e di intelligenza..."
    -Platone, "Timeo"


    The Timaeus ... not a Platonic dialogue I often quote. It's too "religious" for my taste.

    ReplyDelete
  29. \\Very misanthropocentric... ;)

    In old sense? Yes.

    In new sense -- no.

    After revealing truth behind DNA, we now know that all living things on the Earth -- is our cousins.

    Idealism VS Realism.

    Yawn.




    ReplyDelete
  30. Well... that Realism is the branch of Idealism too.

    As we, humans, are ideaistic beings -- that's just how we built. ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  31. Hey, I love the gilettes jeune and AfD. The far right are Europe's Trumpists. They're sick of neoliberal globalist woke/green nonsense, too.

    ReplyDelete
  32. ps - Nothing scares American globalists more than an industrial Germany partnering with an energy rich Russia.

    ReplyDelete
  33. \\Hey, I love the gilettes jeune and AfD. The far right are Europe's Trumpists. They're sick of neoliberal globalist woke/green nonsense, too.

    Bleh. :-)



    \\ps - Nothing scares American globalists more than an industrial Germany partnering with an energy rich Russia.

    And not China that already have BOTH... Plus Ultra! Billion and a HALF ultra. ;-P

    Well... "generals always preparing for a past war". Yawn.



    PS Used search by image? ;-)


    ReplyDelete
  34. https://www.newsweek.com/world-war-3-vladimir-solovyov-ukraine-nato-russia-1908442

    ReplyDelete
  35. Google image? Yep (AfD members).

    And we are in WWIII. NATO started it.

    ReplyDelete
  36. It's a "Warm" war... with different regions "Hot" and others still "Cold".

    ReplyDelete
  37. ...and that's why Ukraine wants longer range weapons. To "heat things up".

    Propaganda.

    ReplyDelete
  38. \\And we are in WWIII. NATO started it.

    Whatever.

    Matter only who will end it.



    \\It's a "Warm" war... with different regions "Hot" and others still "Cold".

    Yep.

    It looks like... in the beginning.




    \\...and that's why Ukraine wants longer range weapons. To "heat things up".

    Who said???



    \\Propaganda.

    If that'll be propaganda -- it would be everywhere.

    But... I didn't heard anything like that.

    So... HOW COME, it Propaganda???




    \\...as for me, I prefer to "cool them down".

    For that... you'd need my NEW tech. ;-P

    AKA bigger box to keep inside all worms from that can that already opened. ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  39. Perfectly reflect my mood toward your dRumpVSBi-den brawls.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Then stop wasting your time on them. I only torture Dervy for the fun of it.

    ReplyDelete
  41. In substance... but your reactions around it, still interesting.

    ReplyDelete
  42. \\ I only torture Dervy for the fun of it.

    Why do you think that you "torture" him??? :-))))

    While you talking on HIS level.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Or even below...

    ReplyDelete
  44. You playing by his rules.

    Allowing him to babble his shit to his hear content.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Well... if you find it interesting -- what it babbling.

    I am not one to judge...

    ReplyDelete
  46. Isn't that what true diplomacy is all about? Listening?

    ReplyDelete
  47. ...but of course "listening" isn't the modern fad... @@

    ReplyDelete
  48. Talking and ignoring anything you don't want to hear, is.

    ReplyDelete
  49. That's spying. ;-P

    Diplomacy -- that is stating own desires, while keeping poker face.

    Why people of country where poker is part of culture... don't get what liliPut and liliXi trying to accomplish, against em.

    ReplyDelete
  50. \\Talking and ignoring anything you don't want to hear, is.

    Have had other experience??? EVER???!!!

    ReplyDelete
  51. ps - You can't make a deal w/o an open channel, either.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Bomb em out... and they'll seek for open channel.

    Well, radio-waves not blocked, yet. ;-P

    ReplyDelete
  53. Predict: will not be disclosed.

    Oh, please... let's wait for a little, and see where they'll place him.

    Worst jail in USA???

    Or... that will be somehow substituted with "probation"? ;-P

    And... what with that DOCUMENT with verdict against dRump -- how soon we will see it?

    dRump in habdcaffs, dRump in orange robe, dRump behind bars????? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))0

    What a TRAVESTY!!! %-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    Shameless, hypocritical, bullshit filled TRAVESTY. %-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))0

    ReplyDelete
  54. ...regain control of the government to run it like a mafia state."

    For a second time? And through democratic elections???

    That is... surely Alice Through the Looking Glass bullshit. :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))00

    No... that is properly 1984.

    "Lie -- it's Truth". Upside Down lying.

    Yawn.

    ReplyDelete
  55. And one in DiDi's realm:

    \\Instead of projecting and calling me a coward, all you need to do is identify yourself and respond without deflections or personal attacks to the content of my post.

    Whom are you kidding???

    Or you just cretin who unable to read cues -- that I am one of that who tried to be polite and did exactly like you here suggested -- not because of your hypocrite's "rules", just out of my own good will.

    But you... plundered it, with your premoderation. With staunch cowardice you showed, when you found that you have no brain to answer to rational argument. ;-P

    But... you think that you can fool me now??? To believe that you reformed itself??? That you'll suddenly will became polite and honest??? And will be able to respond rationally??? :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    But... continue-continue, cretin. :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))



    ReplyDelete
  56. What you have there (Dubya's blog) is the "new style" diplomacy. Make bold statements that must either be accepted in their entirety, or rejected in their entirety, and not publicly disclose all counter-offers (hide the negotiations except in a few minor non-damaging instances). It's a process of power, and those controlled by power. Dave can "lie" to his constituents by controlling the narrative and its' total context. He gets to "build the frame". It's NOT a true dialectic that way, where both side seek a reasonable compromise (or truth). It's a competition and therefore not a cooperative endeavor.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Diplomacy must be held in either complete secrecy or complete public view (with secret backchannels).

    ReplyDelete
  58. My blog position is to not censor anything. And I seldom use secret backchannels (e-mail).

    ReplyDelete
  59. \\It's NOT a true dialectic that way, where both side seek a reasonable compromise (or truth). It's a competition and therefore not a cooperative endeavor.

    Where you saw "both side seek a reasonable compromise (or truth)"????



    \\Anything less is "propaganda".

    Your propaganda... is too ambiguous. Yawn.



    \\My blog position is to not censor anything. And I seldom use secret backchannels (e-mail).

    Well... that's because nothing much happen, here. ;-)

    Moderation is a MUST... if many people participate.

    ReplyDelete
  60. It requires people willing to engage, to become the kiss from the rose on the grey. And to care enough, to remain engaged.

    But that doesn't means that there are no thorns, sub rosa. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  61. Moderation is a MUST... if many people participate.

    See, THAT is where you are wrong. The blogs in the 90's and early 2000's weren't moderated, and they were MUCH more fun. I blogg'ed at the Baltimore Sun newspaper site, and later, at Frontpage magazine's site. It's where I met bloggers like Z (who also strictly moderates her blog - a right wing pShaw).

    It wasn't GamerGate, but it came close at time. It kind of was more 4-CHAN/Pol

    But then Horowitz hired a moderator for FPM in the 2005 timeframe, and many of us were forced to flee and build our own blogs and fight small blog-wars.

    ReplyDelete
  62. At this site, I used to "share" editorial privileges. There were about 15 of us. But we lost some key people over time like The Merry Widow and Nanc, and we slowly lost interest. Always on Watch and Longrange blogged independently. Paleocon Central went out of business. People died off.

    ReplyDelete
  63. \\See, THAT is where you are wrong. The blogs in the 90's and early 2000's weren't moderated, and they were MUCH more fun.

    "We was young. Life was fresh" and etc...




    \\like Z (who also strictly moderates her blog - a right wing pShaw).

    Found nothing to discuss there.

    It devalued to level of primadonna DiBi... btw, do you know what they discussing now? TV shows they saw in childhood... dementia?

    Well... there is fresh and kicking "Dirtnapninja" -- maybe you could track him?




    ReplyDelete
  64. Hoh... new face there -- Cinesias javascript:void(0)

    ReplyDelete
  65. Here it is, AGAIN!

    Primadonna and your famous song:

    ""
    Note however, the only fellow with the GUTS to take me up on a wager dare is a freaking liberal! The very most hypocritical trait of MAGAs is that they are ALL cowardly weenies. (see below)
    ""

    ReplyDelete
  66. Naaah. Choir preaching to choir. I'm looking for a new mr. ducky. I learned so much from him. Or a weasle, or Socrates (all from Frontpagemag). I learned so much from those guys. I wouldn't have multiple Sock Puppets but for the lessons of Socrates. I think Gert may have gotten himself locked up for a while. He was very much committed to the Palestinian cause. His blog (Dispatches from the United States of Mordor) seems to have gone dark. A shame, good guy. Very smart chemist. Nietzsche Girl doesn't blog anymore. Ever since she got her PhD from Cambridge, she only does radical left wing research (her specialty was the Rote Flora squatter). I knew her when she was still getting her MA in Canada.

    ReplyDelete
  67. \\I learned so much from those guys.

    Well... sometimes, one need to open one's eyes, and step on the road of searching for OWN truths... instead of taking em from others. ;-)




    ReplyDelete
  68. Well... core part of that my idea (wasn't I saying about it?) is in establishing such a type of peer-to-peer communication.

    Around common cause.

    Maybe even public one, where multitude of people could participate (to test possibilities, to generate ideas, to have fun together...)

    ReplyDelete
  69. The solutions to hard problems seldom come from within the regular stovepipe.

    ReplyDelete
  70. You need to link a bunch of pipelines together and monitor at the node.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Cross-pollinate at the node. Offer your idea different "lines of flight"... Schizo-philosophically for analyzing schizoid dreams.

    Too crazy? Probably.

    ReplyDelete
  72. \\Cross-pollinate at the node.

    Yep.

    I was reading about Skunk Works workshop. ;-)

    Well... it embedded in current software development practices, already.

    ReplyDelete
  73. So, where we stopped? On tier 3?

    Where I showed that to proceed with higher tiers -- we'd need Space Lift.

    And... with following same motto as behind all that Ovo project -- "doing more with less".

    I suggested that instead if building giga-scale projects like building up already high Everest... to make "ladders into Space".

    Much simple and way more logical and cheap -- is to use balloons.

    Really -- what we really need? Some way to rise mass up and up, through thin air of Earth atmosphere -- to that level where pressure will be thin, and will not deny to us high orbital speeds any more.

    And... same idea of Ovo... it is COMPATIBLE with such use too.

    As sending probe to other stars -- the smaller it is, bigger number of em and much easier we can send.

    Same with that Space Lift -- if, with current techs, smallest possible capsule to be used need to weight for at least 1 ton (am I wrong?).

    To have a standard hull. Some maneuver drives and propelant. Place for a crew???


    But... we can send into space as little as 1 kg Proto-Ovo.

    Why???

    Because they can be versatile.

    One can be whole be maneuver drive. Some other, just a box with propelant.

    AND... some other, will be like that octopus -- spread it's legs/hands -- to catch that other Ovos... sent in series.

    To make of em bigger systems.

    How is this idea to you? ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  74. https://youtu.be/oQ-c6SLINQk

    ReplyDelete
  75. See??? HOW can I BEAT such a crappy BS said in such a deep voice, accompanied by flashy images? ;-P

    :-)))))))))))))))))

    ReplyDelete
  76. You need to watch my last posted video.

    You need "an unconscious process that uses the harnessing of stochasticity to produce purposive behaviour is not necessarily intention. I think that's the way I would put it in philosophical terms. "

    So perhaps set an (intention(s)) for each pipeline and allow them to set the purposive goals, and let them decide how to fulfill your intention(s) for Tier 3, and then (once accomplished) proceed and do same for Tier 2/1

    ...and no that's not all, I'm merely responding to your first comment's opening statement.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Put the cells to making molecules, bodies and organs later.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Autocatalytic networks...

    Life is more than the sum of its constituent molecules. Living systems depend on a particular chemical organization, i.e., the ways in which their constituent molecules interact and cooperate with each other through catalyzed chemical reactions. Several abstract models of minimal life, based on this idea of chemical organization and also in the context of the origin of life, were developed independently in the 1960s and 1970s. These models include hypercycles, chemotons, autopoietic systems, (M,R)-systems, and autocatalytic sets. We briefly compare these various models, and then focus more specifically on the concept of autocatalytic sets and their mathematical formalization, RAF theory. We argue that autocatalytic sets are a necessary (although not sufficient) condition for life-like behavior. We then elaborate on the suggestion that simple inorganic molecules like metals and minerals may have been the earliest catalysts in the formation of prebiotic autocatalytic sets, and how RAF theory may also be applied to systems beyond chemistry, such as ecology, economics, and cognition.

    ReplyDelete
  79. An autocatalytic (RAF) set is a set of chemical
    reactions and associated molecules which is:

    1.Reflexively Autocatalytic (RA): all reactions are
    catalyzed by at least one molecule from the set.

    2.Food-generated (F): all molecules can be
    produced from a “food set” using only reactions
    from the set.

    → A chemical reaction network that has catalytic
    closure (1) and is self-sustaining (2).

    ReplyDelete
  80. So set mass power performance cost schedule budgets and get out of the way (limits define the form):

    Maintaining of the autocatalytic network in a restricted space might have been a geological feature but at some stage those autocatalytic networks acquired membranes once they've got membranes they've got purpose because you see there's constraint by the membrane itself that is what is maintaining the Integrity of that Network it doesn't disperse out into the general solution it stays within that cell uh structure so purpose emerges because it's constrained Within an an agent an entity that's how you sort of get purpose out of it is because exactly and it becomes an individual because of that before that happened it would be well autocatalytic networks forming by chance within what we describe as the Primal soup of the ocean um but it would be temporary it would just disperse itself you've got to some stage to constrain it you've got somehow another to encapsulate it so it is an individual not just a mass of reactions so purpose has to be contained that's really interesting um so so what is non-conscious purpose what is is it a process is it a thing like what is that well it's certainly not a thing I don't think life is a thing either you see I think it's a process I I think this is one of the big difficulties that the neod is have and at root it is a philosophical difficulty as I see it you see um if you were given all the molecular processes molecular elements rather um as uh already listed and within this structure which is the cell um you wouldn't have described what is happening because simply enumerating what there is there cannot do that.

    ReplyDelete
  81. I talking about techs... not magic. Yawn.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Sometime... tech can be achieved through "magic" means -- like Edison did his light bulb -- without understanding Chemistry.

    But... it's better when it engineering. Like Brother's Wright plane. Or Eiffel tower,

    ReplyDelete
  83. \\So perhaps set an (intention(s)) for each pipeline and allow them to set the purposive goals, and let them decide how to fulfill your intention(s) for Tier 3, and then (once accomplished) proceed and do same for Tier 2/1

    Well.

    Actually.

    I tried to think that way... naaah, it not working. Yawn.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Whatever.

    It one and the same.

    Sun -- is it a thing... or a process? ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  85. It's the result of a combined process influenced by gravity, electromagnetism, and coupled with the weak and strong forces to fuse and transmutate matter and release light and energy (the sun's functions).

    ReplyDelete
  86. In other words, the word (sun) and it's functional and process definitions.

    ReplyDelete
  87. ...not simply some dictionary reference from a disciplinary matrix of language that equates the "sun" with our "closest star". Such a simplified linguistic approach contains very little real information.

    ReplyDelete
  88. \\It's the result of a combined process influenced by gravity, electromagnetism, and coupled with the weak and strong forces to fuse and transmutate matter and release light and energy (the sun's functions).

    Is it? ;-P

    That is just a words that reveal our ignorance. Our short lifes. And our self-centered lame bragging.




    \\In other words, the word (sun) and it's functional and process definitions.

    To those who know some school grade sci-trivia and talking in English. ;-)

    Yes.



    \\...not simply some dictionary reference from a disciplinary matrix of language that equates the "sun" with our "closest star". Such a simplified linguistic approach contains very little real information.

    To one who do not know more general principle -- what is star, and how many stars in the Universe. ;-)


    Another word.

    Is all other stars -- is like our Sun?

    Or... that is just Sun are one of miriad stars? ;-)




    ReplyDelete
  89. Inductive VS Deductive. ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  90. Main Sequence Star Nova SuperNova Pulsar Red Giant, white dwarf, red dward, brown dwarf, neutron, Mini BH, Stellar Black holes, Inermediate BH, SuperMassive BH, Schwarzchild, Kerr, Reissner-Nordstrom, Kerr-Newman...

    ALL from same admixture of processes...

    ReplyDelete
  91. ...but many in different chambers, nurserys, nebula, clouds, galaxies, groups, clusters (open/globular) of the universe.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Black Holes "feeding", binaries orbiting, etcetera...

    ReplyDelete
  93. So focus on the "types/classifications" or focus on the "processes" that result from them over a lifetime of being subjected to them.

    ReplyDelete
  94. \\ALL from same admixture of processes...

    Yep.

    Our ignorance. Paints it all in one color... with a wide brush. ;-P




    \\So focus on the "types/classifications" or focus on the "processes" that result from them over a lifetime of being subjected to them.

    Isn't it the same... to us mere clever monkeys? ;-)

    We like to classify... and think that we gained knowledge that way.

    ReplyDelete
  95. I'd quote those lines from Emerson about the classification and categorization of "scientists" from Beauty in The Conduct of Life... but I haven't the energy to Google it again... the failure of biologists to learn the languages of birds and translate for us instead of stuffing them and putting dead birds in museums.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Lem's Golem -- to grok something, one need to change itself. ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  97. ...or to "grok" our own immune system' processes and truly understand them.

    ReplyDelete
  98. And that... possible only from OUTSIDE... with tools and methods of science and tech.

    And need ability to accumulate and process LOTS of information.

    ReplyDelete
  99. ...but NOT with "standard science". We need REVOLUTIONARY science 1st.

    ReplyDelete
  100. New "power structures" to re-center the focus and shift the Overton windows.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Like the Nazi's with their tech leap forward, they ultimately succumbed to the "standardization" bureaucracies necessary for mass production. Deep State bureaucracies will be the death of science.

    ReplyDelete
  102. A molecular "Assembly Theory" based of approach, with "built in intelligence" at every assembly level.

    ReplyDelete
  103. w/Each level "self-adaptive" and "problem solving".

    ReplyDelete
  104. Incorporating all the elements of the assembly level below it, building ever more complex structures (ala "evolution")

    ReplyDelete
  105. Weapons systems that "build and repair themselves".

    ReplyDelete
  106. Ships that do their own damage control w/o crew interventions.

    ReplyDelete
  107. \\...but NOT with "standard science". We need REVOLUTIONARY science 1st.

    Yep.

    With NEW tech(s). ;-)




    \\New "power structures" to re-center the focus and shift the Overton windows.

    NEW tech(s) again.




    \\Like the Nazi's with their tech leap forward, they ultimately succumbed to the "standardization" bureaucracies necessary for mass production. Deep State bureaucracies will be the death of science.

    Well???

    Who produced more standardized things???

    Certainly not Nazis.




    \\A molecular "Assembly Theory" based of approach, with "built in intelligence" at every assembly level.

    I wish you to succeed... with such approach.

    Yawn.




    \\w/Each level "self-adaptive" and "problem solving".

    Recepie of disaster?



    \\Incorporating all the elements of the assembly level below it, building ever more complex structures (ala "evolution")

    With millions of deads?



    \\Weapons systems that "build and repair themselves".

    Billions of deads?


    ReplyDelete
  108. With knowledge of the total "ships" ultimate form imparted to the assembly levels beneath it.

    ReplyDelete
  109. If you want to drown in Drexler's pit so much... I will not be stopping you.

    ReplyDelete
  110. (well, as if I could ;-P)

    ReplyDelete

  111. K. Eric Drexler
    Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › K._Eric_Drexler
    Eric Drexler from en.wikipedia.org
    Kim Eric Drexler (born April 25, 1955) is an American engineer best known for introducing molecular nanotechnology (MNT), and his studies of its potential ...


    He started it in 80th...

    and now he is old sad, and NO progress.

    ReplyDelete
  112. ""
    He would certainly wish to avoid suffering the loss of energy and therefore adhere to a sunk cost fallacy instead of re-thinking his a priori thought position.
    ""

    Well... Persistence -- that is Virtue, isn't it? ;-P

    ReplyDelete
  113. Who ever said that there was only 1 path? We need to pursue many, competing paths to reach the end (if that is even possible).

    ReplyDelete
  114. The term "nano-technology" had been coined by the Tokyo University of Science professor Norio Taniguchi in 1974 to describe the precision manufacture of materials with nanometer tolerances, and Drexler unknowingly used a related term in his 1986 book Engines of Creation: The Coming Era of Nanotechnology to describe what later became known as molecular nanotechnology (MNT). In that book, he proposed the idea of a nanoscale "assembler" which would be able to build a copy of itself and of other items of arbitrary complexity. He also first published the term "grey goo" to describe what might happen if a hypothetical self-replicating molecular assembler went out of control. He has subsequently tried to clarify his concerns about out-of-control self-replicators, and make the case that molecular manufacturing does not require such devices.

    He gave up, and reverted to "top down" solutions. You need to start at Level 15 (inert) and discover the secret of (life) to create higher level assemblies... but perhaps from different combinations of "inert" substances (that didn't make the "leap" to life.

    ReplyDelete
  115. I know what you're thinking, if it were possible, evolution would have cracked it.

    ReplyDelete
  116. So maybe on another planet, robots from "inert' matters evolved. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  117. These Cyberman, according to Gaiman, were a mixture of Mondas and Cybus Cybermen. His rationale being that the Cybus Cybermen who were "zapped off into time and space" at the end of The Next Doctor eventually met the Mondas Cybermen; cross-breeding and exchange of technology resulted in the new variety.

    So perhaps humans need to "evolve" into cybermen (re-integrate new inert matters into useage by our DNA self-replicating systems)

    ReplyDelete
  118. \\Who ever said that there was only 1 path? We need to pursue many, competing paths to reach the end (if that is even possible).

    Yep.

    Only I prefer and propose to do it along geodeziks... instead of climbing over mountains. ;-P

    Better go through Moria... than climb over snowy mountains. ;-)





    \\I know what you're thinking, if it were possible, evolution would have cracked it.

    Well... it did. In it's slimy way. ;-P



    \\So maybe on another planet, robots from "inert' matters evolved. ;)

    That way it makes it not inert, isn't it?





    \\He gave up, and reverted to "top down" solutions. You need to start at Level 15 (inert) and discover the secret of (life) to create higher level assemblies... but perhaps from different combinations of "inert" substances (that didn't make the "leap" to life.

    You... just made first step on a path I took decades ago... yawn.

    And from wrong leg, to boot. :-/



    ReplyDelete
  119. ...turning life functions on-off during space travel like "viruses"

    ReplyDelete
  120. Sorry, but I don't have your IQ. My brain works slower.

    ReplyDelete
  121. That's... not about IQ.

    More like philosophy of life.

    And accidents... like me meet Lem's book in good timing.

    ReplyDelete
  122. So what was your first Lem book? and where'd you go from there? Chronologically? Or random?

    ReplyDelete
  123. For philosophy, I went "selective chronologically" by philosopher's complete works, starting with Plato.

    ReplyDelete
  124. \\So what was your first Lem book?

    Couldn't you devise it yourself? ;-)




    \\and where'd you go from there?

    Whatever I could find... in library(es).




    \\For philosophy, I went "selective chronologically" by philosopher's complete works, starting with Plato.

    Well... it can give you knowledge of classification...


    ReplyDelete
  125. Well... you not learned structure of it...

    ReplyDelete
  126. Lamarckian difference and repetition, but w/o intelligence, only structures.

    ReplyDelete
  127. w/o synergy of and necessity for... ie- heart, but w/o mechanism and interplays between hearts pacing electrical rhythms

    ReplyDelete
  128. ...component inter-dependencies and intelligent functions.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Platonic "parts" ignorant of higher structures or "the whole" (made whole by linguistic nomenclature only).

    ReplyDelete
  130. Curative Leaf's w/o their corresponding "charms" (Plato, "Charmides").

    ReplyDelete
  131. ...or in Lamarck's case, "charms" without the leaf.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Perhaps its YOU who haven't grokked the structure of it. ;P

    ReplyDelete
  133. ...and Noveau bias' like Theuth (Plato "Phaedrus").

    ReplyDelete
  134. Theuth is the Egyptian god of the underworld who is credited for inventing numbers, writing, and games of chance. In the Phaedrus, Socrates characterizes him as the advocate of the benefits of writing to the god Thamus, ruler of Thebes. Theuth claims that writing will serve as an elixir (pharmakon in Greek) of memory, as it will allow humans to record and then recall their thoughts.

    Storing DNA outside the body... like ST "Spock's Brain"

    ReplyDelete
  135. \\Perhaps its YOU who haven't grokked the structure of it. ;P

    Well... we can discuss -- is it inner our outer structure.

    I... prefer outer structure, and base primciples.

    That is how unsophisticated I am. ;-P



    \\...you're so helpful

    What? I need to serve you philosophy dictionary? ;-)



    Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy
    Oxford Reference
    https://www.oxfordreference.com › abstract › acref › ac...
    This best-selling dictionary covers all areas of philosophy and contains terms from the related fields of religion, science, and logic.




    Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
    Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
    https://plato.stanford.edu
    The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy organizes scholars from around the world in philosophy ... Philosophical Association, and the Philosophy Documentation ...




    Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy | An encyclopedia of ...
    Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
    https://iep.utm.edu
    An encyclopedia of philosophy articles written by professional philosophers. ... © Copyright Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy and its Authors | ISSN 2161-0002.





    The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy
    Cambridge University Press & Assessment
    https://www.cambridge.org › core › books › cambridge-...
    This is the leading, full-scale comprehensive dictionary of philosophical terms and thinkers to appear in English in more than half a century.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Already seen and referenced them.

    I know deduce, never induce... @@

    ReplyDelete
  137. As Bruce Lee have said "I do not fear fighter who know 1000 moves... only those who know ONE move, but trained it 1000 times". ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  138. \\...the "Lamarckian" way!

    Whatever it could mean?

    ReplyDelete
  139. So??? Have you solved CENTRAl problem of Phylosophy, then???

    If you are that knowledgeable? ;-)

    ReplyDelete


  140. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    The Conduct of Life
    VIII. Beauty
    Was never form and never face
    So sweet to SEYD as only grace
    Which did not slumber like a stone
    But hovered gleaming and was gone.
    Beauty chased he everywhere,
    In flame, in storm, in clouds of air.
    He smote the lake to feed his eye
    With the beryl beam of the broken wave;
    He flung in pebbles well to hear
    The moment's music which they gave.
    Oft pealed for him a lofty tone
    From nodding pole and belting zone.
    He heard a voice none else could hear
    From centred and from errant sphere.
    The quaking earth did quake in rhyme,
    Seas ebbed and flowed in epic chime.
    In dens of passion, and pits of wo,
    He saw strong Eros struggling through,
    To sun the dark and solve the curse,
    And beam to the bounds of the universe.
    While thus to love he gave his days
    In loyal worship, scorning praise,
    How spread their lures for him, in vain,
    Thieving Ambition and paltering Gain!
    He thought it happier to be dead,
    To die for Beauty, than live for bread.

    The spiral tendency of vegetation infects education also. Our books approach very slowly the things we most wish to know. What a parade we make of our science, and how far off, and at arm's length, it is from its objects! Our botany is all names, not powers: poets and romancers talk of herbs of grace and healing; but what does the botanist know of the virtues of his weeds? The geologist lays bare the strata, and can tell them all on his fingers: but does he know what effect passes into the man who builds his house in them? what effect on the race that inhabits a granite shelf? what on the inhabitants of marl and of alluvium?
    We should go to the ornithologist with a new feeling, if he could teach us what the social birds say, when they sit in the autumn council, talking together in the trees. The want of sympathy makes his record a dull dictionary. His result is a dead bird. The bird is not in its ounces and inches, but in its relations to Nature; and the skin or skeleton you show me, is no more a heron, than a heap of ashes or a bottle of gases into which his body has been reduced, is Dante or Washington. The naturalist is led from the road by the whole distance of his fancied advance. The boy had juster views when he gazed at the shells on the beach, or the flowers in the meadow, unable to call them by their names, than the man in the pride of his nomenclature. Astrology interested us, for it tied man to the system. Instead of an isolated beggar, the farthest star felt him, and he felt the star. However rash and however falsified by pretenders and traders in it, the hint was true and divine, the soul's avowal of its large relations, and, that climate, century, remote natures, as well as near, are part of its biography. Chemistry takes to pieces, but it does not construct. Alchemy which sought to transmute one element into another, to prolong life, to arm with power,--that was in the right direction. All our science lacks a human side. The tenant is more than the house. Bugs and stamens and spores, on which we lavish so many years, are not finalities, and man, when his powers unfold in order, will take Nature along with him, and emit light into all her recesses. The human heart concerns us more than the poring into microscopes, and is larger than can be measured by the pompous figures of the astronomer.


    -Emerson, "The Conduct of Life" (Beauty).

    All George Soros "Alchemy of Finance"... without real alchemy, only "social psychology"

    ReplyDelete
  141. Whatever... I'm not chemist...

    ReplyDelete
  142. Neither am I. But I do know that Assembly Theory is at least trying (through deduction) understand the INDUCTIVE processes of evolution leading to more complex systems. Will it leave the knowledge of functions/intelligences for problems solved (intelligence) at every level behind?

    ReplyDelete
  143. ...and let mankind sink into a Drexler's Pit of despair and abandonment of any hope for reaching and dwelling amongst the stars? ;P

    ReplyDelete
  144. It's time for a Science Revolution... not the same-o same-o of doing things the "new fashioned' way.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Staring in every problem with the CURRENT Foucauldian "medical/scientific gaze" (Foucault, the Archeology of Knowledge")

    ReplyDelete
  146. Perhaps it's time for another paradigm shift. Perhaps modelled on a variant of the old four humours alchemistic model that the "medical gaze" replaced. We have enough "sherlock Holmes'" now. Let's try something different.

    ReplyDelete
  147. ...and restore some of those previously "filtered out" irrelevant data points.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Uncover the remaining "mysteries" need to prove the Deterministic Universe Theories.

    ReplyDelete
  149. ...or at least begin to understand the true meaning of the words "collective intelligence".

    ReplyDelete
  150. Some parts "oblivious" to knowledge of "chemistry".

    ReplyDelete
  151. \\Neither am I. But I do know that Assembly Theory is at least trying (through deduction) understand the INDUCTIVE processes of evolution leading to more complex systems. Will it leave the knowledge of functions/intelligences for problems solved (intelligence) at every level behind?

    Without experimenting? ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  152. Dali, "Atavism at Twilight" Each figure pondering the "che vuoi" question, "What does the other want from me? and the hidden objet petit 'a hard-on.

    ReplyDelete
  153. \\It's time for a Science Revolution... not the same-o same-o of doing things the "new fashioned' way.

    Yep

    Science today -- it's Tech(s) ;-)




    \\...and let mankind sink into a Drexler's Pit of despair and abandonment of any hope for reaching and dwelling amongst the stars? ;P

    Naaaah.

    Drexler's Pit its variant of Turing Tarpit


    Turing tarpit
    Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Turing_tarpit
    A Turing tarpit (or Turing tar-pit) is any programming language or computer interface that allows for flexibility in function but is difficult to learn and use ...


    That's... something that practicing programmer understand with his bones.

    How code behaves.

    Like a potter know how clay feels in his hands -- what is possible, and what is not.

    ReplyDelete