.

And by a prudent flight and cunning save A life which valour could not, from the grave. A better buckler I can soon regain, But who can get another life again? Archilochus

Thursday, September 1, 2022

Ukraine on the Membrane

It would be tragic if Ukraine defeated Russian neo-imperialism only to yoke itself to Western neoliberalism. While being a Western economic colony is certainly better than being absorbed into a new Russian empire, neither outcome is worthy of the suffering Ukrainians are now enduring.

LJUBLJANA – As everyone knows, Volodymyr Zelensky played a Ukrainian president in the television series Servant of the People before becoming Ukraine’s president in real life, and that irony led many not to take him seriously (as if a president who previously served in the KGB is better). But less well known is the basic plot of the series.

Zelensky played Vasily Petrovich Goloborodko, a schoolteacher whose students record him ranting about corruption, share the video online (where it goes viral), and then sign him up as a candidate in the country’s next presidential election. Having unwittingly tapped into Ukrainians’ widespread frustration over corruption, Goloborodko wins, faces a steep learning curve in office, and eventually starts to confront the country’s oligarchy from his new position of power.

The show’s depiction of Ukraine is apt. Of all the post-communist countries in Eastern Europe, it was the hardest hit by economic “shock therapy” (sweeping market reforms and privatization) in the 1990s. For three decades since independence, Ukrainian incomes have remained below where they were in 1990. Corruption has been rampant, and the courts have proven a farce.

As Luca Celada of il manifesto writes, “the ‘conversion’ to capitalism has followed the usual pattern: a class of oligarchs and a narrow elite have enriched themselves disproportionately by despoiling the public sector with the complicity of the political class.” Moreover, financial assistance from the West has always been “strongly tied to reforms that Ukraine was required to implement, all under the banner of fiscal restraint and austerity,” further immiserating much of the population. Such is the legacy of the capitalist West’s engagement with post-independence Ukraine.

Meanwhile, my sources in Russia tell me that President Vladimir Putin has assembled a group of Marxists to counsel him on how to present Russia’s position in the developing world. One can find traces of this influence in the speech he gave on August 16:

“The situation in the world is changing dynamically and the outlines of a multipolar world order are taking shape. An increasing number of countries and peoples are choosing a path of free and sovereign development based on their own distinct identity, traditions, and values. These objective processes are being opposed by the Western globalist elites, who provoke chaos, fanning long-standing and new conflicts and pursuing the so-called containment policy, which in fact amounts to the subversion of any alternative, sovereign development options.”

But, of course, two details spoil this “Marxist” critique. First, sovereignty “based on their own distinct identity, traditions, and values” implies that one should tolerate what the state is doing in places like North Korea or Afghanistan. Yet that is completely out of step with true leftist solidarity, which focuses squarely on antagonisms within each “distinct identity” in order to build bridges between struggling and oppressed groups across countries.

Second, Putin objects to “the subversion of any alternative, sovereign development options,” even though that is exactly what he is doing in Ukraine by seeking to deprive its people of self-determination.

Putin is not alone in pushing this pseudo-Marxist line. In France, the far-right leader Marine Le Pen now presents herself as the protector of ordinary working people against multinational corporations, which are said to be undermining national identities through the promotion of multiculturalism and sexual depravity. In the United States, the alt-right succeeds the old radical left with its calls to overthrow the “deep state.” Donald Trump’s former strategist Steve Bannon is a self-proclaimed “Leninist” who sees a coalition of the alt-right and the radical left as the only way to end the reign of financial and digital elites. (And, lest we forget the progenitor of this model, Hitler led the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.)

More is at stake in Ukraine than many commentators seem to appreciate. In a world beset by the effects of climate change, fertile land will be an increasingly valuable asset. And if there is one thing Ukraine has in abundance, it is chernozem (“black earth”), an extraordinarily fertile soil with high concentrations of humus, phosphoric acids, phosphorus, and ammonia. That is why US and Western European agrobusiness firms have already bought up millions of hectares of Ukraine’s farmland – with just ten private companies reportedly controlling most of it.

Well aware of the threat of dispossession, the Ukrainian government imposed a moratorium on land sales to foreigners 20 years ago. For years thereafter, the US Department of State, the International Monetary Fund, and the World Bank repeatedly called for this restriction to be removed. It was only in 2021 that the Zelensky government, under immense pressure, finally started allowing farmers to sell their land. The moratorium on sales to foreigners remains in place, however, and Zelensky has said that lifting it must be put to a national referendum, which would almost certainly fail.

Nonetheless, the cruel irony is that, before Putin launched a war to colonize Ukraine by force, there was some truth to the Russian argument that Ukraine was becoming a Western economic colony. If the conflict has any silver lining, it is that the neoliberal project has been put on hold. Since war demands social mobilization and a coordination of production, it offers Ukraine a unique chance both to halt its expropriation by foreign corporate and financial entities and to rid itself of oligarchic corruption.

In pursuing this opportunity, Ukrainians must bear in mind that it is not enough simply to join the European Union and catch up to Western living standards. Western democracy itself is now in deep crisis, with the US veering toward ideological civil war, and Europe being challenged by authoritarian spoilers from within its own ranks. More immediately, if Ukraine can achieve a decisive military victory (as we should all hope), it will find itself deeply indebted to the US and the EU. Will it be able to resist even greater pressure to open itself up to economic colonization by Western multinationals?

This struggle is already playing out beneath the surface of Ukraine’s heroic resistance. It would be tragic if Ukraine defeated Russian neo-imperialism only to yoke itself to Western neoliberalism. To secure genuine freedom and independence, Ukraine must reinvent itself. While being a Western economic colony is certainly better than being absorbed into a new Russian empire, neither outcome is worthy of the suffering Ukrainians are now enduring.

103 comments:

(((Thought Criminal))) said...

Donald Trump’s former strategist Steve Bannon is a self-proclaimed “Leninist” who sees a coalition of the alt-right and the radical left as the only way to end the reign of financial and digital elites. (And, lest we forget the progenitor of this model, Hitler led the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.)

Setting aside Zizek's coy ignorance that "alt-right" is merely the Old Left repackaged with Pepe the Frog memes, it's still inescapably obvious that even imaginary ideological and political miscegenations and hybridizations of "left" and "right" never result in anything but left-wing ideology. Such couplings always produce illiberal, collectivist, anti-capitalist, anti-free trade, anti-free market bastardizations with authoritarianism and totalitarianism as their central features. Not a damned thing right-wing about the product of incest between Old Left and New Left. I suspect Zizek is familiar with the writings of Milovan Djilas and actually already knows this, even if it is inconvenient for his No True Leftist fallacy to avoid othering his fellow leftists like Hitler and Mussolini as "rightists" as if killing far more millions of people somehow makes more faithful schools of Marxism superior to their Strasserian and Sorelian offshoots.

(((TC))) said...

Was it not Marx himself that equated the end of capitalism with "the world without Jews?"

I mean, Marx and Engels both spin in their graves everytime someone accuses the Nazis of being right-wing.

(((TC))) said...

From the horse's mouth to the horse's ass it's a left-wing horse through and through.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Like the "Protestant Work Ethic" before it, The Jews were a "vanishing mediator" on the road to "corporate capitalism".

And sure, every marriage of "conservatism" with Leftism that doesn't return to America in 1776 is going to get called Leftism... cuz "conservatism" is a turning back of the clock to "classical liberalism".

Anonymous said...

The alt-right is neither paleoconservative nor neoconservative. It isn't even conservative at all. And if you scratch one hard enough to get them to admit their Sorelianism, you readily see that they're not even right-wing.

So why even include them on the right?

They're Madison "Passing of the Great Race" Grant progressive leftist eugenicists and scientific racists updated from the early 20th Century with frog memes. They're not out to restore or conserve classical liberalism. They want Nazism 2.0

(((TC))) said...

Nice name change BTW. It was nice of the Eisenhower administration to speed up the execution of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg so they wouldn't be frying pigs on the Sabbath. ;)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Thanks. Nixon probably put in a good word for them.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

In a previously unpublished interview, Richard M. Nixon said that Ethel Rosenberg, the convicted spy, might have been spared the death penalty by President Dwight D. Eisenhower had he been aware that evidence against her was tainted.

“If I had known — if we had known that at the time — if President Eisenhower had known it, he might have taken a different view with regard to her,” Nixon, who was Eisenhower’s vice president, is quoted as saying. “In other words, tainted evidence, even though a person is totally guilty, is a reason to get him off.”


Sounds like the FBI has been doing "parallel constructions" for quite a while.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Earlier concerns about those inconsistencies were raised in a book, “The Rosenberg File,” by Ronald Radosh and Joyce Milton in 1983. Mr. Gannon quotes Nixon as saying shortly after the book was published that “the case they made for cooking the evidence is pretty weak.”

(((TC))) said...

Ethel Rosenberg's brother David Greenglass, his wife Ruth Greenglass, Harry Gold, Morton Sobell, and Klaus Fuchs should have all gotten the chair too. No "parallel construction" needed

The siblings Ethel Rosenberg and David Greenglass are the link between passing nuclear bomb and detenator designs, and even bomb-grade uranium from source with access (David Greenglass) to Soviet handled spy (Julius Rosenberg). Without Ethel, the two communist agitators don't become aware of each other, and Greenglass' detailed technical information on the atomic bomb doesn't get typed up. The espionage and theft of America's atomic bomb design was a family affair. The wives Ethel Rosenberg and Ruth Greenglass typed up all the documents passed between the commie brothers-in-law to get to the Soviet Russians. David Greenglass even dead dropped uranium into the East River for Soviet agents to retrieve and take back to Russia for study.

The problem is not that too many commies died for stealing classified information, but rather not enough commies died.

(((TC))) said...

David Greenglass threw his sister under the bus, but she belonged there as much as he did.

Eisenhower was too soft on Communism ;)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Either you have the evidence or you don't... and the feds obviously didn't have it. Either negative liberty is your principle, or it isn't. There's no half-way.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...otherwise, you're no better than them.

Anonymous said...

Are you spreading Putin's propaganda on your own?
Or, you paid for that.

Means, are you an useful idiot... or an used idiot.))))))

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (((TC))) said...
Was it not Marx himself that equated the end of capitalism with "the world without Jews?"

I mean, Marx and Engels both spin in their graves everytime someone accuses the Nazis of being right-wing.



Oh, this one showing some intellectual proves.
I'd like to talk with you, TC. ;-P

(((TC))) said...

Either you have the evidence or you don't... and the feds obviously didn't have it. Either negative liberty is your principle, or it isn't. There's no half-way.

The "Feds" had the evidence, as the Venona cables declassified in 1995 clearly showed. Rather than reveal the "how" they knew who in Soviet intelligence was managing Rosenberg et. al., they were able to crack Greenglass into turning state's evidence and keep their insight into Soviet spy efforts for 30 more years.

A gamble that paid off with more captured Soviet spies than shooting the wad and losing them and the means to detect them.

But yeah, Greenglass, his wife, and the others should have fried in electric chairs right alongside the Rosenbergs. There's no reason the Greenglass' kids couldn't have been sent to Russia to starve under Communism.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to talk with you, TC. ;-P

New number, who dis?

(((TC))) said...

You can't get caught with classified documents you claim you never had then shift to ranting about how they were nice and neat in a desk drawer instead of spread out on the floor for an evidence photographer.

Trump has confessed to crimes no one accused him of LOL.

It's kinda of like David Greenglass telling the Feds he dumped uranium bomb samples into the East River without knowing the Feds already had a Russian agent in custody that was caught with said uranium.

Trump isn't a good liar. Why's he keep trying?

Q said...

\\I'd like to talk with you, TC. ;-P

\\New number, who dis?

I'll call myself Q. For now. ;-)


\\Trump isn't a good liar. Why's he keep trying?

Trying?
He riding a f*g wave. When he saw that no matter what your lie is -- there always will be a horde of followers, cheering you to lie more, no MOAR!!!!!!!

Do you aware that that is 2022 anno domini behind the window?
Truth means nothing today. Only size of your social network.

(((TC))) said...

Q like the Star Trek character or Q like Furber and Watkins?

Q said...

Whatever you like :-)

The same as I could ask you of what exactly thought you are criminal. ;-)


Well, I liked your comment, because you showed that you are not one of libtards -- without brains, or toom scared to admit that such a cosy and useful shorcuted-obfuscated "nazi" really mean national-SOCIALISM.

That way it gives a funny vibes to a recent calling Trunmp "fascist" by a JoBiden.
Trump -- fascist? Really???
Like when?
When he gave one of biggest gifts to Israel? In ages.
Or maybe he showed desire to conqure the forld?
Or? With his attitude toward culture? Like wanting it to by "refined" and based around "cult of ancestors"? :-)))

But, we know who really showing that traits.
In all accordance with that old saying "fascists of the future will be calling others fascists".

(((TC))) said...

I speak (type) my mind. Sometimes people like it, sometimes people hate it.

It's lazy to conflate German national socialism (Nazism) with Italian Fascism. Similar, yes. Allied in World War 2, certainly. But ideologically, not quite the same. You could criticize Mussolini, to his face, as long as you were drunk. Hitler wasn't so tolerant. Italy under Mussolini didn't round up Jews and send them to extermination camps. And so on.

That's not a defense of Fascism, far from it. If you were to make a genealogy of ideologies, like a family tree, Nazism and Fascism are siblings, maybe even cousins, descending from Sorelianism, which in turn descended from Marxism, which came from Hegelism, which came from Robespierre, which came from Rousseau and Sade.

Left to the left to the left left left. Leftists all.

And by the same measure, I consider Trump to be a neo-Sorelian. A leftist. Doesn't matter if Trump can't actually read and probably has never heard of Sorel. His thoughts have been thought before. Nothing new under the sun.

Q said...

\\I speak (type) my mind. Sometimes people like it, sometimes people hate it.

We are brothers in arms than. :-)
But my ratio of love/hate a little bit scewed. :-(


\\It's lazy to conflate German national socialism (Nazism) with Italian Fascism. Similar, yes. Allied in World War 2, certainly. But ideologically, not quite the same.

Yeah...
and if you'd add into that pot all kinds of other fascisms. Romanian, hungerian, spanish and etc.
As well as fascists movments in England and USA...

But you are not right about reasons of it. That is not because of laziness.
That is bona fide propaganda shtick. Cold War propaganda.
When USSR drumbeated it as "fascism, that is in any country that is not us, communists".
So, that is pecular... WHY, in this day and age, same style propaganda was adopted by some (all of em?) Dems in USA???


\\That's not a defense of Fascism, far from it.

That is unneeded propecting phrase in talk with me. :-)
Though, I am not pro-fascistic too. That is hella idiotic type of regime -- type of parasit which killing the host and die with it.


\\descending from Sorelianism,

Guilty. Dunno. What it is?


\\which in turn descended from Marxism, which came from Hegelism, which came from Robespierre, which came from Rousseau and Sade.

Means any and all dumbing down or for dumb fools socialistic utopian ideologies... isn't it?

Well. Thing is, they cannot be eradicated. As there always more poor and stupid people than smart and wellbringed.



\\And by the same measure, I consider Trump to be a neo-Sorelian. A leftist.

Yep. Populist and opportunist.


PS Well, it looks like we came to understanding here.
And that makes it end of discussion. Which is pitty.

What other point, in which spheras are you interested in? Some other place where discussion could thrive?
Apart from political
Can it be some phylosophy? Science? Human relations? Tech?


My treat. Here -- http://tcantine.blogspot.com/2022/03/understanding-over-believing.html#comment-form
My discussion about other socialistic shtick popular among lib-aligned today -- UBI. ;-)

(((TC))) said...

The connective branch of leftism from the Marquis de Sade to Robespierre to Hegel to Marx to Sorel to Mussolini (or from Robespierre to Hegel to Marx to Lenin to Stalin to Mao, each branch on the leftist family tree has a fork and bifurcation) is all from a glorification of violence as a political tool. Sorel even wrote a book "Reflections on Violence" that reads pretty much the same way as Robespierre's "Justification of the Use of Terror."

Even the far left America-hater Donald Trump never did a thing about civil unrest and rioting in American cities. Why would he? The violence served his neo-Sorelian purposes.He gave a big boost to the idea that civil unrest and violence could not be contained or stopped, emboldening it. The Myth (Sorel was big on myth) that violence could replace democracy is still kicked around by Trump's toothless supporters and their idle talk of civil war. Could you imagine if Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda hated America as much as Donald Trump and his supporters do? We've had riots in LA, Chicago, etc. before and the government's always been able to step in and stop them... Until the far.ledtist America hater Donald Trump was in charge. Incompetence or enabler? Yes, enabler.

You can even take the branch from Marx to Fitzhugh who identified slavery and socialism as the same thing (correctly and honestly). If people themselves are the means of production and socialism seeks ownership of the means of production and the people belong to the state... Yep, that's slavery. Everyone is government property. All forms of leftism boil down to that. It's what makes them left-wing. Collectives rather than individuals.

Q said...

\\The connective branch of leftism from the Marquis de Sade to Robespierre to Hegel to Marx to Sorel to Mussolini (or from Robespierre to Hegel to Marx to Lenin to Stalin to Mao, each branch on the leftist family tree has a fork and bifurcation

The same as with religious cults.
Well, in a sense that is one and the same.
Feeding ground of any religion is poor and dumb people.
Starting from the age of shamanism.)))


\\still kicked around by Trump's toothless supporters and their idle talk of civil war.

Well... I know some renovned Dems who pound this idea of Civil War... like something they want real and bloody, and ASAP.
So they could brutaly win in it, and have "final solution" to existance of "alt-right MAGA anericans".)))

But well, from Evolution Theory we know that there is no bigger competition than intra-specie competition. ;-)


\\If people themselves are the means of production and socialism seeks ownership of the means of production and the people belong to the state... Yep, that's slavery.

I would argue that it is WORSE.
Still, under honest slavery regime, slaves are free to admit that they are slaves.
While under socialism they teached to chant "we are not slaves, slaves not we are".(believe me, I know what I'm talking 'bout here).


\\All forms of leftism boil down to that. It's what makes them left-wing. Collectives rather than individuals.

Well... more like -- leftism, that is manifestation of collectivism.
Still, it's hard to argue against, as true power of Mankind is in that that we are trully one big herd of humans. Not thoroughly united under one rule, still. Or yet.



PS You not reacted to that link. There was interesting discussion there.
Well, if that is your genuine feelings, I will not try to expand our communication any more.

Q said...

\\The siblings Ethel Rosenberg and David Greenglass are the link between passing nuclear bomb and detenator designs, and even bomb-grade uranium from source with access (David Greenglass) to Soviet handled spy (Julius Rosenberg).

If you are curious of such things, there is relatively new series about that events. Made in RFia.
Of course, that is not documentary. But there is lots of mood and trivias of that epoch(from russia point-of-view). And quite good action.


\\Q like the Star Trek character or Q like Furber and Watkins?

Frankly, I didn't know about that later.

Also, there is Q from Bond films. ;-)

(((TC))) said...

So they could brutaly win in it, and have "final solution" to existance of "alt-right MAGA anericans".)))

Leftists fight each other, yes. Usually with eliminationist rhetoric driving them.

But well, from Evolution Theory we know that there is no bigger competition than intra-specie competition.

That isn't evolution theory.

Q said...

\\That isn't evolution theory.

Well. Everything is. Where is life, there is evolution.
I myself even a bit more radical in my views -- all Universe itself is an ambodyment of Evolution.

In that special case evolution theory framework is more than quite fitting.
What drives Evolution? There is different animals (or even entities that is not animal, not alive even... like stars), which compete with each for a feeding grounds.
Easy to see, animals of same specie is most furious against each other in such competition -- because they eat same crop.(or the stars... they "eat" matter around themself)

So, the same with leftists, and any opportunists in general.
Their "feeding grounds" is poor and dumb people.
And though amount of such is great. The moment mind of a dumbass pauper being conquired by some idea... there is no place for any other idea remains.(not like in more smarter fellows, isn't it?)
So, they are forced to be laud and furious. That is their evolutional trait. ;-)

(((TC))) said...


Well. Everything is.
No, just no. Everything is *not* evolution.

I prefer words to retain their proper and meaningful definitions. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with politics or ideology or even astrophysics, it's nonsense to misplace the category. There's not even an apt analogy there to work with.

You lost me in several places, declaring that stars "eat" in "competition" with other stars is just absurd, and has nothing to do with politics.

Q said...

\\No, just no. Everything is *not* evolution.

Seems like we found a good topic to discuss.

Well, I am ready to admit, that my "everything is evolution" is little bit exaggerated.
But.
Fully in accordance with "What is life from the point of view of Physics" by Heisenberg (if I recall it correctly) that is absolutely makes sense.
Like in.

1) There is Universe, and that is absolutely objectively obvious fact -- that it exist.

2) And that Universe works by laws of Phisics. Nothing else.

3) And in their basic sctructure, Laws of Physics not only allow, but pretty much Prescribe. For a Life to happen.

And well... what is there, in this Universe, exist. More complex and interesting than Life itself. That pretty much defines the reason for it to exist?

In that precisely sense. Universe is Everything. As it is everything and anything that we can see, that we can know.
And Life... that is everything that Matters. Isn't it?

But well, I am not militant about that. And open to your thoughts about it all...
Who knows, what if there IS something else, that is even more enticing and interesting than Life itself.


\\ The theory of evolution has nothing to do with politics or ideology or even astrophysics, it's nonsense to misplace the category. There's not even an apt analogy there to work with.

Theory of evolution.
Based on some pretty simple. Physical in nature. Principles.
And as we know, principles of physics... they are just everywhere.
We can see a waves on the sea surface.
But we also know that there is waves made of sand. Quite visible, isn't it.
But also, we know and can visualise that sounds in the air -- is also waves.
And, though that is not apparent, more indirect, we know about electro-magnetic waves.
And even more than that... we know that light itself -- that is physical waves...

So, I am absolutely on your side with that, that it's wrong to "misplace the category".
But in this particular case. To agree with it -- means to throw out of a window ALL scientifical discoveries and gained understanding of Nature for the last 100 years...
And there need to be quite more persuasive reasons, for me, to agree with it. Than just a simple statement of denial.


\\You lost me in several places, declaring that stars "eat" in "competition" with other stars is just absurd, and has nothing to do with politics.

I placed it in "". So, of course that doesn't mean that stars are like living giants with a mouth, and a hand, and a fork/spoon in that hand. :-)))
But.
You might know HOW stars forming. From enormous clouds of gases and dust. They attract with force of gravity (discovered by Newton, yes?)
And when some star, starting gobbling that mass of gases -- less mass remains free to any other star out there.

That is not even ANY level of Physics knowledge needed to understand that.
That is way too obvious -- when one removes spoon after spoon of what is on that plate... the less and less of that something remains on that plate.
Till the moment nothing remains. Plate becomes empty.

That is the same basic principle (principle of subtraction, so to say) can be seen in other places and spheres.
As in politics too -- when one of political forces attracts more and more followers.
The fewer and fewer remains to be attracted by other force(s?).
That is what elections are all about. Isn't it?


PS From all this, you can see yourself -- of what type of Q I am. ;-)

(((TC))) said...

Getting in the weeds of trying to determine how long you have to bake bread until you can slice it into pieces of toast. :/

i.e. you're beating an analogy with a hammer and it still won't fit. Lots of turns from here to there that you skipped along the route, then have ignore the route you took is why you didn't get where you're trying to go. Your yardstick is too paisley.

Evolution doesn't work as an analogy of politics and philosophy. There is no one arguing that the Gallic Celts under Brennus that sacked Rome in 387 BC had a more evolved politics or philosophy than the Roman Empire. You could say the Romans "evolved" more strategic depth and tactical prowess than relying on the spasms and twitches of an oracle whacked out on ergot poisoning, but they didn't... Rome was sacked five more times over the next 1800 years, for various reasons internal and external, the last time by its own somewhat ersatz "Holy Roman Imperial" army that it thought it could arm, send to war, then refuse to pay salaries to. There's no evolution here. The haves and the have nots clashed, and the haves lost and the have nots had nothing to lose. If you're looking for signs of evolution in human sociology, politics, and philosophy, you'd have more luck looking for whale song patterns in the way the wind disperses dandelion seeds. Wrong tool, wrong measure, wrong question.

The only thing philosophy has to say about that is "it would be horrible if we couldn't make sense of our ignorance." As is killing people and taking their shit wasn't the point all along.

Yeah, tying politics to evolution leads no where good.

(((TC))) said...

It's kinda telling that the first city / civilization (according to the Bible) was founded by a guy that killed his brother over God preferring meat over veggies.

Q said...

\\i.e. you're beating an analogy with a hammer and it still won't fit. Lots of turns from here to there that you skipped along the route, then have ignore the route you took is why you didn't get where you're trying to go.

I beg myself a pardon.
That is THE BIG TOPIC to discuss. Complex and hairy.
And that makes it not easier -- that I do not know your background (things you deem as true without explanation and width of your expertise), so that is inevitable that my missive may look dashed and partial...



\\Evolution doesn't work as an analogy of politics and philosophy.

I am precisely stated. While correcting my first overbroad claim.That I refer not to Evolution as a whole.(though, I do not see -- why not? still, we all with our political and phylosophical views ARE INSIDE Universe and not outside, so what is the problem with admitting em being subjected to rules *inside* it?)
But at first I deconstructed it as consisting of some MORE basic principles.
And that is principles existance of which cannot be denied.(as for example additive and subtractive nature of matter, its amount being a hard limit defining anything and everything around us)
And then I show how that principles can be applyed in other spheres.

Well, that is pinnacle of Science, as it was re-invented in 20th century.
But still, though I pointed at pointlessness of it. :-)
Trying to throw out of a window.
As something unneeded.
Useless?
Why?



\\There's no evolution here.

I like your reference to a History. And well, you are right, in a sense that evolutional researches in history science is still too far from maturity. If even present. :-)
But. Far from being discouraged, it can make me excited.
As that is question(s) that was intriguing me for a long time. ;-)


\\The haves and the have nots clashed, and the haves lost and the have nots had nothing to lose.

I bet my understaning of Science and History on that -- that after enough work over that "haves" and "have nots", there'd be the hard bottom of Evolution would be found.

Really.

What else is Evolution. Not distant, among galaxies and stars, but here on the Earth. Evolution we witnessing every day. And even taking part in (like when we do cross-breeding of our pets and cattle).
Than that constant struggle against death? Continuous game to decide who will strive and who will perish.


\\If you're looking for signs of evolution in human sociology, politics, and philosophy, you'd have more luck looking for whale song patterns in the way the wind disperses dandelion seeds. Wrong tool, wrong measure, wrong question.

Again. Just a statement of denial.
More complex and wordy this time.
But still devoid of countre-arguments and logical refutations of any kind.
Just merely "it cannot be so, because cannot be so, ever".

For example, phylosophy.
It have things called "phylosophy schools".
Doesn't they resemble spicies in biology? Have definite traits. But also constantly splitting and trying to cross-breed with each other. Or, on the contrary, trying to be rigid, and ward-off any competitors?
Same what any animal trying to do, struggling to survive while pushing their DNA into the future.


\\The only thing philosophy has to say about that is "it would be horrible if we couldn't make sense of our ignorance."

Well. One phylosophical school would say that. Maybe.
Some other, not.
I myself can claim being follower of a phylosophical school called Positivism, that stands behind back of all modern Science. By declaring that Universe can be researched and understood. And there's no better thing in it than more and better knowledge.
Scientifical knowledge, of course.
Feel free to call me a zealot here. :-) Zealous of Science.

(((TC))) said...

Hey, there's nothing more pessimistic than an empirical Positivist ;)

You've probably heard the joke about the guy that looked under the lamppost for his keys because the light was better? Yeah, his family starved to death locked in his car.

Positivism doesn't allow you to make the metaphysical claims you seem to be making. Evolution isn't metaphysical, and thusly can't be inserted as the explanation for or driving force behind politics or philosophy. You can't make science from nonsense.

Science is bound by the verification principle... the sword it lives and dies upon. Nothing is true if you can't prove it.

And therein lies the other brain-exploding flaw of Positivism. Are you familiar with Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem?

https://youtu.be/I4pQbo5MQOs

Truth exists without verification. Math can't even prove itself, and you want to measure God with it?

Positivists hate me :P

Q said...

\\Hey, there's nothing more pessimistic than an empirical Positivist ;)

That is qualitative not quantitative claim.
And as much as all opinionated snarks... cannot be proved. ;-P
And as such... unimpressive.


\\You've probably heard the joke about the guy that looked under the lamppost for his keys because the light was better? Yeah, his family starved to death locked in his car.

Like that families that followed insane beardy in his wandering across desert for 40 years was anyhow better fed. ;-)
And... your side CANNOT propose anything better then yet some more millenias of such wanderings.

While that guy under the lamppost created all modern wonders of civilization, so you can sit in cosy armchiar before computer and rant about that guy deficiencies. ;-P
Self-defeating, that is. :-)))



\\Positivism doesn't allow you to make the metaphysical claims you seem to be making.

Hah. But Positivism do not demand of me rigidity of thought and streaktness in following its catheshisms (well, there is none, to start with). ;-P
Quite contrary, it allows (and even demands, well, recognizes for the very least) plurality.
So... I am free to explore "metaphysical claims" from your standpoint.
But.
You freaklingly cannot allow to yourself to make even one step out from "sacred grounds" of your ideology.
So, you are forced to sit in your stronghold, trying to shoot me with your miserly arrows... while I am free to wonder over plains and hills, with my modern rifle, or machine gun, or on a tank... or even ride a hyper-sonic plane. :-)))



\\Evolution isn't metaphysical,

Do you use "metaphysical" as "otherworldly" here?
Just trying to clarify.
Well, that is mostly useless attempt, as your side do not like to clarify important points in a discussion (which you showed higher). Because of existential fear of it becoming open and obvious... falsehood of your claims. But, yeah, it could show your axiomatic clearly, and we could continue discussion with more formal means of logic.



\\ and thusly can't be inserted as the explanation for or driving force behind politics or philosophy. You can't make science from nonsense.

Emm, "driving force"? (is it like "living force"? that mystical reason which make living things living? disproved by modern discoveries of DNA and proteins)
Well, of course. Evolution is not a force. But a structure. Informational structure even.
To visualise it.
There is high tides, higher than usual, at some places.
But that is not because there is some coordination center in heavens, that prescribe it to happen -- for a water to come closer, step more over land mass, by a divine orders.
But. Because mere structure of a coast make it so -- that big masses of water coming through tight places make a bigger rise. In accordance with very basic principles of physics -- like conservation of matter.

Is tides a "nonsense"? I dunno.
Well, if so, than that is damn POWERFUL nonsense.
Much more powerful than any preachings in a cathedral. ;-P
And even more than that. As, as I can see, you admit wellbeing (people to be fed) as practical reason to destinguish false from true, am I right?
High tides feeding way more people than preaching in cathedrals. ;-)
Well, they feeding that people in cathedrals too. (wide green)



\\Science is bound by the verification principle... the sword it lives and dies upon. Nothing is true if you can't prove it.

Well... and what not?

Q said...

.




\\And therein lies the other brain-exploding flaw of Positivism. Are you familiar with Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem?

And how is this a flaw? That is Triumph!!!
It shows that positivistic thinking can do even UNIMAGINABLE -- to go beyond fences of its own formal system. And stay alive.
Can YOUR ideology do anything like that? :-)))


https://youtu.be/I4pQbo5MQOs

\\Truth exists without verification. Math can't even prove itself, and you want to measure God with it?

"Truth"... that is mere word.
Words are just labels. Scribbed on a stickers. With glue on its back constantly loosing it's strength. Or sticking to a fingers or some wrong things.
The same is "God".

I cannot verify what words Truth and God means for you, yet.



\\Positivists hate me :P

Well. Feel free to show me that positivists.
'Couse, you know, there is lots of counterfeits out there. :-)

(((TC))) said...

Pretty sure there are no Positivists running around demanding that lack of intellectual rigor be taken seriously.

Congratulations, you're not a logical positivist. And you figured out a way to define yourself out of their camp. With mere words. A positivist might belabor that point, but I think you impaled yourself quite nicely.

(((TC))) said...

i.e. you've used the words "evolution, science, and Positivism" incorrectly.

And you've really abused the hell out of the phrase "interesting discussion," as well, to be honest.

Q said...

Ahh-ahh-ahh... so defensive, you are. :)))


\\Congratulations, you're not a logical positivist.

Ouch-ouch-ouch... you hit with your arrow directly in my heart... it's bleeding... i'm dying...
Well, no.:-))))
Accusation from someone in not being logical (in any sense of that word), WOTHOUT even a speck of logical propositions involved -- have NO weight, NO value.
AT ALL.

That is like I would try to accuse you of NOT being faithful believer...
without pointing at EVEN ONE transgression.

You are running from a battlefield. And produce loud and continuous underdog barking.
Well, while reassuring yourself that you are winner. :-))))


\\i.e. you've used the words "evolution, science, and Positivism" incorrectly.

Well, that is damn easy to fix.
Just show the correct usage. ;-)
But you can't. Because you know none. :-))) As everyone and anyone from Your Side. :-)))
You are so-o-o pathetic.


\\And you've really abused the hell out of the phrase "interesting discussion," as well, to be honest.

Khm... so? I, in your opinion, have no agency even to decide -- what is interesting and what is not??? For me exactly. :-)))
That is such a loser's bark.



\\Pretty sure there are no Positivists running around demanding that lack of intellectual rigor be taken seriously.

That would be hard... in a tight crowd of your kin who already doing that in every place possible. :-)))
Even if he'd be able to scream more loudly than you (which is technically near to impossible) -- his screams would be indestinguishable from yours.
And why, anyway, proud of himself positivist would do that? Dunno. :-)))


\\And you figured out a way to define yourself out of their camp. With mere words. A positivist might belabor that point, but I think you impaled yourself quite nicely.

And you can show it?
How exactly I "defined myself out"?
How I "impaled myself"?

Well, that is rethorical questions. I know damn too well that your kin never overweight themself with need of having upper hand deceasivly. Transparently. Logically. And obviously.
Underdog barking, that is all that suffice to play as a "counter-argument" in your crowd. :-)))

Q said...

Oh... it seems I found what made you so excited.

My words "But Positivism do not demand of me rigidity of thought and streaktness in following its catheshisms".

But see, what the problem. Here.

Positivism. Scientific thinking DOES demand _streaktness_... but not in following of its method, in answering to a questions. As in religion.

Quite contrary -- we need to find new and new ways of understanding, of answering to a questions, to all: old things, and new things.

But. It DOES need. It demands -- streaktness of thought. Precise logic. Provable inferences.

And also, it demands rigidity... but not rigidity of thought, as on your side. But rigidity in following scientific methods and non-allowing pseudo-science.


So... you fooled yourself, that you understood (any?) my words. And made complete fool of yourself, when so pompously proclaimed your revelation about me. :-)))
And yet one time proved it.
Their are fools... all way down. :-)))
Religiots.

(((TC))) said...

I assumed from your poor grasp of English grammar and syntax that you might be more fluent in another language, and are struggling to communicate with native English literates. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a blithering imbecile.

You have trashed that notion. Now I assume you're a blithering imbecile in at least two languages.

You came here to argue against "religion" where there is no one here arguing for "religion" - you're blithering. You want to defend "evolution theory" when no one is attacking anything but your lack of understanding of evolution theory. How you jumped from trying to misuse evolution theory in inapplicable ways to ranting about religious believers is some process I'm sure you will misspell, mis-punctuate, and insist on Humpty Dumptian definitions of words otherwise used incorrectly and far away from their proper context to rigorously commit to throwing toys out of your pram.

You said you wanted to have an "interesting discussion." You lied.

There's nothing remotely interesting about discussing anything philosophical or otherwise with someone that can't even be bothered to spell the things they don't know about correctly. The burden you carry is yours and yours alone. You can't argue that evolution explains all things when you don't even have a clue what evolution theory actually explains.

If you want me to refute your case, you're going to have to make one first.

(((TC))) said...

You are running from a battlefield. And produce loud and continuous underdog barking.
Well, while reassuring yourself that you are winner. :-))))


No, a better analogy is that I entered your shop with the sign that read "interesting discussions inside" and found empty dusty shelves and no customers and a guy behind the counter asking me to imagine the store would be restocked with interesting discussions if I gave him a dollar.

I kept my dollar you kept your empty shelves.

Q said...

\\You came here to argue against "religion" where there is no one here arguing for "religion" - you're blithering.

Quit that mascarade. :-)
That is you are one who said (typed) "Truth exists without verification. Math can't even prove itself, and you want to measure God with it?" higher.
And with this revealed your ideological stance fully.

If only you'd omited that "Gawd"... you could pose yourself as some kind of phylosopher.
Or, if you'd omitted that "Truth exists without verification".
You could pose yourself not as militant believer.
But.
You busted yourself from get go.



\\You want to defend "evolution theory" when no one is attacking anything but your lack of understanding of evolution theory.

That is you started to attack evolution. From get go.

Poor religiot, it cannot pass into your brain that simple (for educated scientifically mind) truth, that there is ONLY ONE way to demonstrate someones "lack of understanding" -- to demonstrate OWN superior understanding.
And that you can... not. :-))))



\\Humpty Dumptian definitions of words otherwise used incorrectly and far away from their proper context to rigorously commit to throwing toys out of your pram.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rigidity

rigidity noun
ri·​gid·​i·​ty | \ rə-ˈji-də-tē How to pronounce rigidity (audio) \
plural rigidities
Definition of rigidity
1 : the quality or state of being rigid
2 : one that is rigid (as in form or conduct)

Synonyms

exactingness, hardness, harshness, inflexibility, rigidness, rigor, rigorousness, severity, sternness, strictness, stringency

Antonyms

flexibility, gentleness, laxness, mildness


Yes. Flexibility. Flexibility of thought -- that is needed for a scientifically capable mind. In opposite to a rigidity of religious mind.
100% what I meaned.

And.

strictness \ ˈstrik(t)-​nəs

Synonyms

accurate, authentic, exact, faithful, precise, right, true, veracious

Antonyms

corrupt, corrupted, false, imprecise, inaccurate, inauthentic, inexact, loose, unfaithful


Yeah. Imprecise. Inaccurate. Inauthentic. Inexact. Loose. Unfaithful.
That is all I see in adepts of a religion. And in you. (and you see my benevolence here, as I omitted most graveous ones ;-))

Seems like Merriam-Webster -- that famous treasury of English words is on MY SIDE too.

But well, I am generous enough. To a (self-proclaimed) native speaker and wise-mind of the English language to give YOUR dictionary, or even YOUR own ad hok definition of that words. ;-P
Which would prove YOUR point.



.

Q said...

.


\\You said you wanted to have an "interesting discussion." You lied.

Yet again. You trying to decide INSTEAD of me what is interesting and what is not, for me.
What a loser. :-)))
Even though you showed that you do not deserve that early praise of your thought process from me. I did it too prematurely, yeah. Your funny tricks still able to entertain me. Why people go to circus. Or zoo. Anyway. :-)))



\\You can't argue that evolution explains all things when you don't even have a clue what evolution theory actually explains.

Feel free to demonstrate your intellectual proves, and give correct (from your point of view) explanation.
But... you can't. :-))) Because that all is just empty babbling. You do not know Science. You do not know anything about Evolution. You unable to dicuss things with logic and facts.



\\If you want me to refute your case, you're going to have to make one first.

Oh, my, my... poor thing. I need to make it in bold, for your poor brain to comprehend?
Things of science, can be proved/disproved ONLY through *correct* discussion with logic and facts. Not with mere babbling and baseless you-are-wrongs.
GO REFUTE THIS. :-)))




\\I kept my dollar you kept your empty shelves.

Ha... only that is absolutely counter-factual.
That is *I* am one who gave you a dollar.
With my prematurely and heisty judgment that I found someone worth of talking with.
Remember?

"
Oh, this one showing some intellectual proves.
I'd like to talk with you, TC. ;-P

September 4, 2022 at 10:54 AM
"

And this thread of discussion showing it all. And you cannot change it, as that is not your lair and you cannot niether ban me out nor delete my comments. As your kin do every time when they start feeling themself in a pinch. And that happens... quite around same time as in this thread. Go make your own blog, to have such a miraculous power, would ya?

Q said...

Again M-W.

Direct quote
"
Choose the Right Synonym for strict
RIGID, RIGOROUS, STRICT, STRINGENT mean extremely severe or stern. RIGID implies uncompromising inflexibility. rigid rules of conduct RIGOROUS implies the imposition of hardship and difficulty. the rigorous training of recruits STRICT emphasizes undeviating conformity to rules, standards, or requirements. strict enforcement of the law STRINGENT suggests severe, tight restriction or limitation. stringent standards of admission
"

(((TC))) said...

Evolution has nothing to do with politics or religion or astrophysics. That is not an attack on evolution theory. It's just pointing out that evolution theory has nothing to do with the categories of thought you are trying to apply to it to.

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem shows that mathematics makes statements that are "true, but can not be proven." Religions do this too. Untestable claims. I was not arguing "for religion." I was pointing out that the same criticism leveled at religion for making statements that cannot be proven is an accepted fact and acknowledged flaw of mathematics, which also makes statements that cannot be proven. The only difference there is that mathematicians are comfortable acknowledging their systems are "incomplete," that math can not prove itself, but do not acknowledge they have placed "faith in things unseen," just like religionists do. "God" can not be proven with math. So? Math can not be proven with math either. This doesn't make mathematicians "idiots" either.

Recently, particle physicists created mass in a vacuum from nothing by using electromagnetism and gravity. They did, on a very small quantum scale, precisely what religionists claim "God" did at "the creation of the universe." Now, if they could do it without electromagnetism and gravity, they'd really do better than "God." But, electromagnetism and gravity is omnipresent, just like religionists say "God" is. Now they know, perhaps, "how God created the universe from nothing."

That gap can be bridged, but neither scientists nor religionists want to contend that "God is merely electromagnetism and gravity" even when it's right there in their face. Even when scientists claim electromagnetism and gravity are everywhere (just like religionists claim about "God") and religionists claim humans are "made in the image of God" or are "like gods" or even "are gods" (such as the scientists that recently created matter from nothing.)

Science and religion are not at odds, not really. They are two different things describing different aspects of the same thing. Neither of them are "idiots."

Now, back to you. Nobody here is attacking science, and nobody here is defending religion. The only one here throwing a tantrum and "declaring victory" is you. It's not impressive. You brought the argument that "everything is evolution." The burden is not on me to prove that it is not. You either have an argument showing that "everything is evolution," an interesting discussion of that that can withstand scrutiny, or you don't.

We both know that you don't. Your shelves are empty and dusty.

Anonymous said...

Things of science, can be proved/disproved ONLY through *correct* discussion with logic and facts. Not with mere babbling and baseless you-are-wrongs.
GO REFUTE THIS. :-)))


Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem.

Next?

(((TC))) said...

Psst. "I myself even a bit more radical in my views -- all Universe itself is an ambodyment of Evolution."

That's not science. It's not even correct English grammar. Even if you bothered to spell "embodiment " correctly.

"All (of) the Universe is an embodiment of evolution" is not a "radical view." It's just wrong.

re: 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Q said...

Things of science, can be proved/disproved ONLY through *correct* discussion with logic and facts. Not with mere babbling and baseless you-are-wrongs.
GO REFUTE THIS. :-)))

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem.

Next?


Are you TC? Or some another anonimous?

Khm...
and how GIT disproves Logic? :=)
And how it disproves Physics? :-)))

Q said...

\\Psst. "I myself even a bit more radical in my views -- all Universe itself is an ambodyment of Evolution."

\\That's not science.

Em... you are storming the open doors here. As I myself admitted higher that that is a little bit poetical and even metaphorical claim. I NEVER claimed that that is established scientific discovery.
Just my own opinion.
Topic for a discussion.
But not settled matters and established Truth. But not an apparent Wrong too.
Something that is Unknown.


\\"All (of) the Universe is an embodiment of evolution" is not a "radical view." It's just wrong.

\\re: 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

Again. You are like that don Kihot here. Charging at windmills which you imagined being giants. ;-)))

As I have stated previously "Universe is an embodiment of evolution" that is just a hypothesis. Or even some distant possibility I like to ponder about.

Being it right or wrong -- that is a question which need to be researched.

And well, your refutation is lame as hell.
How? Just how mention of 2nd law refutes anything here???
Can you provide logical schema of your thought, instead of final conclusion?

Well. Still. I must admit that level of your argumentation is rising. Not much. But rising.
Hope it would be possible for you to make yet 1-2 steps on that ladder.

Like here for example.
Four Step Refutation | Department of Communication
www.comm.pitt.edu › four-step-refutation
Refutation is designed to introduce arguments, undermine opponents' arguments, rebuild arguments, and clarify own arguments.


Or. I like this schema the most.


.

Q said...

.



Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement: How to Argue Like an Expert
themindcollection.com › revisiting-grahams-hie...
As Graham points out, refutation is the highest form of disagreement. That's because it's difficult, which is why it's ...


http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

DH0. Name-calling.

This is the lowest form of disagreement, and probably also the most common. We've all seen comments like this:
u r a fag!!!!!!!!!!
But it's important to realize that more articulate name-calling has just as little weight. A comment like
The author is a self-important dilettante.
is really nothing more than a pretentious version of "u r a fag."

DH1. Ad Hominem.

An ad hominem attack is not quite as weak as mere name-calling. It might actually carry some weight. For example, if a senator wrote an article saying senators' salaries should be increased, one could respond:
Of course he would say that. He's a senator.
This wouldn't refute the author's argument, but it may at least be relevant to the case. It's still a very weak form of disagreement, though. If there's something wrong with the senator's argument, you should say what it is; and if there isn't, what difference does it make that he's a senator?

DH2. Responding to Tone.

The next level up we start to see responses to the writing, rather than the writer. The lowest form of these is to disagree with the author's tone. E.g.
I can't believe the author dismisses intelligent design in such a cavalier fashion.
Though better than attacking the author, this is still a weak form of disagreement. It matters much more whether the author is wrong or right than what his tone is. Especially since tone is so hard to judge. Someone who has a chip on their shoulder about some topic might be offended by a tone that to other readers seemed neutral.

So if the worst thing you can say about something is to criticize its tone, you're not saying much. Is the author flippant, but correct? Better that than grave and wrong. And if the author is incorrect somewhere, say where.

DH3. Contradiction.

In this stage we finally get responses to what was said, rather than how or by whom. The lowest form of response to an argument is simply to state the opposing case, with little or no supporting evidence.

This is often combined with DH2 statements, as in:
I can't believe the author dismisses intelligent design in such a cavalier fashion. Intelligent design is a legitimate scientific theory.
Contradiction can sometimes have some weight. Sometimes merely seeing the opposing case stated explicitly is enough to see that it's right. But usually evidence will help.


As you can see it yourself, you are still on the level DH3... at best



.

Q said...

.


And this is the levels you still need to master


DH4. Counterargument.

At level 4 we reach the first form of convincing disagreement: counterargument. Forms up to this point can usually be ignored as proving nothing. Counterargument might prove something. The problem is, it's hard to say exactly what.

Counterargument is contradiction plus reasoning and/or evidence. When aimed squarely at the original argument, it can be convincing. But unfortunately it's common for counterarguments to be aimed at something slightly different. More often than not, two people arguing passionately about something are actually arguing about two different things. Sometimes they even agree with one another, but are so caught up in their squabble they don't realize it.

DH5. Refutation.

The most convincing form of disagreement is refutation. It's also the rarest, because it's the most work. Indeed, the disagreement hierarchy forms a kind of pyramid, in the sense that the higher you go the fewer instances you find.

To refute someone you probably have to quote them. You have to find a "smoking gun," a passage in whatever you disagree with that you feel is mistaken, and then explain why it's mistaken. If you can't find an actual quote to disagree with, you may be arguing with a straw man.

While refutation generally entails quoting, quoting doesn't necessarily imply refutation. Some writers quote parts of things they disagree with to give the appearance of legitimate refutation, then follow with a response as low as DH3 or even DH0.

DH6. Refuting the Central Point.

Q said...

\\Evolution has nothing to do with politics or religion or astrophysics.

And who said that?

Yes, there is established notion that Evolution. Theory of Evolution. That is branch of Biology (more like main trunk today).

But that is just an arbitrary agreement.As by this time Evolution was mainly researched in attachment to Biological Life.
But that is Not A Dogma... :-))) as you like in Religion to be. And there is No Law Against exploration of possiblities of it to be more widely present.
Not in Science for at least.


\\It's just pointing out that evolution theory has nothing to do with the categories of thought you are trying to apply to it to.

That is too flamboyant claim... to be taken into account without ANY argumentation behind it. ;-)



\\Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem shows that mathematics makes statements that are "true, but can not be proven." Religions do this too. Untestable claims.

Yes. That "statements that are "true, but can not be proven."" That is... axioms.

Religion have it too. I give it to you.

But.

NOT the same as in Math.

Because in Math, as in Science in general -- axioms subcepted to a logical scrutiny. And that is not something rare, that is what happens all the time.
And Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem is one of the brightest example of that.

Show me religion that DOUBTS it's own dogmas. :-))))))



\\I was pointing out that the same criticism leveled at religion for making statements that cannot be proven is an accepted fact and acknowledged flaw of mathematics, which also makes statements that cannot be proven.

Yeah... but that is not a "flaw". And it doesn't mean that "statements that cannot be proven" cannot be proven AT ALL. ;-) That is level of your understanding showed it's misery here.
That just mean that MORE developed system must be introduced to prove that statements.

As in.
A formal system might be syntactically incomplete by design, as logics generally are. Or it may be incomplete simply because not all the necessary axioms have been discovered or included. For example, Euclidean geometry without the parallel postulate is incomplete, because some statements in the language (such as the parallel postulate itself) can not be proved from the remaining axioms.



\\"God" can not be proven with math. So? Math can not be proven with math either.

God cannot be proven BECAUSE nonsense cannot be proved. By definition. Nonsense -- that is someting devoid of meaning. It goes into totally different box. Into garbage can. ;-P
Math... can be proved/refined with more advanced Math. ;-)



\\Science and religion are not at odds, not really. They are two different things describing different aspects of the same thing. Neither of them are "idiots."

Go say that to a religiots... when they in big packs... in their churches, especially. Ones who militant about Evolution. Or some other scientifical truth they do not like. (like pi number NOT being equal to 3) :-)))


\\Now, back to you. Nobody here is attacking science, and nobody here is defending religion. The only one here throwing a tantrum and "declaring victory" is you. It's not impressive. You brought the argument that "everything is evolution." The burden is not on me to prove that it is not.

Hah... but that is again -- counter-factual.

My arguments was not about "everything is evolution" -- that was just a headliner, arguments was provided futher and was down to earth and detailed... but you ignored them. And instead chose to cherry-pick and twist my words to attack them as nonsense.
That is called Strawman Argument as it is defined, man.

(((TC))) said...

Now you're being silly. You premised your entire shitshow argument upon "all Universe itself is an ambodyment (sic) of Evolution" and have been stuck there ever since I objected to it. Your premise is bunk. Astrophysics is not a function of biological evolution. Quantum physics is not a function of biological evolution. Politics is not a function of biological evolution. Philosophy is not a function of biological evolution. History is not a function of biological evolution. Art is not a function of biological evolution. Metallurgy is not a function of biological evolution. Meteorology is not a function of biological evolution. And so on. Your premise is not a "radical view" that "requires more research" or further discussion. Your premise is nonsense. Your premise is garbage. Your premise failed, miserably.

And now you're lying and claiming it wasn't your argument. Really? Then why all the frantic trying to *strawman* my objection to your pseudo-science into being a religious disbelief in evolution theory? Are you on drugs? Your whole presentation has been attacking me, personally, because I refuted your argument's central and defining premise. I've done so now with history, with math, with quantum physics and thermodynamics. No, dipshit, the universe is in fact *not* an embodiment, or even an "ambodyment" of evolution, whatever an "ambodyment" is.

Since you've now tried the intellectual dishonesty route, I'm going to require that you apologize for this error, and give a sign that you're ready to discuss honestly. Admit that you have no idea what evolution theory actually means. Admit that you're totally ignorant of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. Admit that that you have no clue what the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does to your premise that the universe is evolving.

Or, shortcut, just admit you're an imbecile. It's not like you're hiding it.



(((TC))) said...

God cannot be proven BECAUSE nonsense cannot be proved.

You're going to shit on yourself, again, when you find out that Kurt Gödel, the math that revolutionized mathematics forever with his Incompleteness Theorem, also wrote an ontological proof for the existence of God using modal logic and the many worlds interpretation of string theory.

But, let's work on your grasp of English first.

Q said...

\\Now you're being silly. You premised your entire shitshow argument upon "all Universe itself is an ambodyment (sic) of Evolution" and have been stuck there ever since I objected to it.

Man???
When you buying in supermarket brand name product. Like "Captain Crunch" or "Uncle Bence", do you start complaining to a manager that that product is counterfeite, because there is NO chopped bodies of a respective person is in that packages??? :-))))

It is correct thing to play strictness in a discussion.
But clearly NOT the way you trying to do here.
As was clearly and in details described in a piece I quoted higher.

But, I will add from myself. You started from lame backbites and underdog barking -- as you not have brains to refute anything in more refined and intellectual manner. But that was unsuccessfull -- as I saw through it right away.

Now you trying to flood it all with mud and feces. Like a swine.
With a goal to ward me off, and declare your victory on that base. But it wouldn't happen. I know how to roast swines too. :-))) And like fresh pork. ;-P Yammy.

So. There is only ONE successfull strategy remains -- to declare your feelings being injured, to declare me "disturber of peace", "troll", "nasty person", etc...
Someone who do not deserve to talk with such a refined AMbodyment (fun service for you) of Wisdom as YOU are. ;-P

But. This is not your blog. And you cannot ban me out. And there is no crowd of your followers who would help you to play that treak. So, it all is just your sad and solitary mastrubation -- to reassure oneself that you are right and your opponent is wrong, though it totally opposite to Reality.
But, showing Fuck to that Reality, that is all what you can. :-))))))))) Looooser.


And. In short. As with your miserly brains it's possible that you could not parse written higher.
With your own words.

.


Or, shortcut, just admit you're an imbecile. It's not like you're hiding it. :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


.

Q said...

Anonymous (((TC))) said...
God cannot be proven BECAUSE nonsense cannot be proved.

You're going to shit on yourself, again, when you find out that Kurt Gödel, the math that revolutionized mathematics forever with his Incompleteness Theorem, also wrote an ontological proof for the existence of God using modal logic and the many worlds interpretation of string theory.




So what? :-)))

I declared myself empirical positivist. And you know that.

And now you trying to impress empirical positivist with your "Gedel proved something-something"??? :-)))

You really are much more stupid than a log.
Show me your Gawd alive and kicking... only then I would start to decide does it prove anything and what it could mean... after dissecting IT in a lab. ;-P



But, let's work on your grasp of English first.

Feel free to demonstrate WHERE my "grasp of English" lacking.

But you wouldn't.

As you have NO brains even for that.

Only lame barking.

Only waterfalls of swine's mud.

Only piles of fresh and steamy bullshit.

That is ONLY what you are capable of. Now I see why you going as anonimous. Because even you ASHAMED of that mental deficiency of yoursel.

Q said...

\\Your premise is bunk. Astrophysics is not a function of biological evolution.

Like *I* said it.
That is all YOUR OWN strawman here.
I pointed to SIMILARITIES in underling basic principles. That is COMMON to all Universe. Laws of Nature they called.

a) In biological evolution animals do compete for a food... because food made of matter. And as such -- limited in amount. By design.

b) Stars do compete for a "food" -- sparsely distributed matter around em.

THAT IS, BECAUSE... There are limited amount of matter in the Universe. And consequentally in each of its part.

That is one of the laws of Nature -- law of conservation of matter, manifestation.


\\Quantum physics is not a function of biological evolution.

Yeah, yeah... When green leaf of a tree or grass do capture a photon of sunlight, to transform its energy into sugar... that have nothing to do with QM. Of course, of course. :-)))

Yeah, you are trully are (self-revealing) imbecile... in Science.



\\Politics is not a function of biological evolution.

Yet one strawman. Yawn. :-))


\\Philosophy is not a function of biological evolution.

Yet one.


\\History is not a function of biological evolution. Art is not a function of biological evolution. Metallurgy is not a function of biological evolution. Meteorology is not a function of biological evolution. And so on.

Why stoping there? Is it ALL names of Sciences that you know? :-P


\\Your premise is not a "radical view" that "requires more research" or further discussion. Your premise is nonsense. Your premise is garbage. Your premise failed, miserably.

And you demonstrated that deceasively?
With logics and facts?
You are such a looser.
Instead of admitting own defeat. Or, loss of interest in discussion.
You keep digging that pit of shame. To bury yourself in it.


\\And now you're lying and claiming it wasn't your argument. Really?

Of course.
Here is my quotes.
I said immediately after your first attempt of "criticizm", but really just a mere strawman and demonstration of your own ignorance and lack of knowledge, and decency, and intellectual honesty which precludes it all.

\\No, just no. Everything is *not* evolution. <--- your claim

Seems like we found a good topic to discuss.

Well, I am ready to admit, that my "everything is evolution" is little bit exaggerated. <--- my response
But.
Fully in accordance with "What is life from the point of view of Physics" by Heisenberg (if I recall it correctly) that is absolutely makes sense.
Like in.
V my logic here V
1) There is Universe, and that is absolutely objectively obvious fact -- that it exist.

2) And that Universe works by laws of Phisics. Nothing else.

3) And in their basic sctructure, Laws of Physics not only allow, but pretty much Prescribe. For a Life to happen.

And well... what is there, in this Universe, exist. More complex and interesting than Life itself. That pretty much defines the reason for it to exist?

In that precisely sense. Universe is Everything. <--- and my conclusion, you totally ignored it all
September 12, 2022 at 6:28 AM



It's you who ignored my logic.
And keep insisting that I said something that I didn't said. And criticizing me for it. And keep ignoring logic and mere facts.
What a looser you are.

Q said...

\\Admit that you have no idea what evolution theory actually means.

After you.
After you'll find a definition of evolution theory (that is not a prob, Google for a rescue).
And will demonstrate. With precise quotes. Where my words CONTRADICT that definition.

I see it as only right and intellectual way to do that.
But, I profess that you will not do it... and only will continue your tryes to bury all with swine's mud and bull feces. :-)))

Not a prob. As I am far away and neither grease nor stench can reach me.
But your tryes are funny as hell... so, continue, continue, my little piggy.



\\Admit that you're totally ignorant of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem. Admit that that you have no clue what the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does to your premise that the universe is evolving.

I could demand to do the same with this ones.
But you already in a deep shit.
And that matters if far beyond your miserly mental capacuty anyway. :-))))
So, just first one definition would be quite enough.

Q said...

Oh... and now I know what type of "thought criminal" you are.

You are murderer. Serial killer of a thought. Striving to become mass-murderer of anything and everything intellectual and containing thought in itself. :-))))

(((TC))) said...

If I'm a "murderer of everything intellectual," you must feel extremely safe knowing that you can't even convince me that you are intellectual.

So why all the panicked ad hominem attacks? Have some self-awareness. You began with a stupid and flawed and failed premise. Instead of abandoning that faulty premise, you continue to insist being wrong is actually being right. I can not help you. You want to sound intelligent, but you don't know how to sound intelligent.

That you seem to have access to a dictionary yet continue to misspell and misuse words is an obstacle you don't even have the willingness to address. Most built-in spell checkers will correct your spelling and grammatical atrocities, but even a stupid argument spelled correctly is still a stupid argument. You're an imbecile in at least two languages.

There is some hope though. The more you type, the greater the probability that you will one day accidentally type something intelligent to read. Today wasn't that day. Tomorrow looks pretty bleak as well.

In chess, you'd be insisting your checkmate isn't a loss because you can always kick the table over and call your opponent a pig. But that would neither convince anyone you know how to play chess nor entice anyone to sit for a game for any reason but to easily destroy you again. Perhaps for the laughs to be had at your tantrums.



Q said...

\\If I'm a "murderer of everything intellectual,"

Hah... you showed here with all preciseness that you do not have sense of humor. And that is one of most visible traits of an embicile. As well as inability to understand what is metaphora and etc. To keep into one's mind more than one short sentence. Congrats, congrats! :-)))


\\So why all the panicked ad hominem attacks?

Let's see... (rolling upward into webpage)

Here exactly, where you started to talk about my personal traits.
Congratulations, you're not a logical positivist. And you figured out a way to define yourself out of their camp. With mere words. A positivist might belabor that point, but I think you impaled yourself quite nicely.

September 14, 2022 at 11:50 AM


I only respond to your tone since.

What? I should continue to talk politely with a swine who started to try to invent as stingy name-calling of me as possible??? :-)))
Not a chance.
If swine want to be roasted. So be it.



\\You began with a stupid and flawed and failed premise.

That is not MY problem that you do not posess a brain capable of anything else but lame underdog barking, swine's mud pondering, bull's crap pulverising...



\\Instead of abandoning that faulty premise, you continue to insist being wrong is actually being right. I can not help you.

First of all, you cannot help yourself... with understanding simplest logic and mere facts.
Well, even simple understanding that that wasn't my "premises" avoids your miserly brains. That that is impossible to pack big and complex meaning into few words, without making it figurative. And I pointed it to you from the very begining that my words like "Everything is Evolution" have no literal meaning.
But... you do keep insisting that inside packs of "Captain Cranch" and bottles of "Uncle Bence" chopped parts of that exact person depicted on a label MUST BE. What an idiot.


\\You want to sound intelligent, but you don't know how to sound intelligent.

I. Am. Intelligent.
And have no need to "want to sound intelligent". :-))) What for???
That is your problem.
As in that anekdote: "I know karate, jiu-jitsu, muai-tai... and many other words to scare off bullies on the street".

Yep. You know lots of "smart" words. Like thermodinamics or phylosophy. But you know a zilch about meaning of that words
And that is damn easy to see that it's true -- you was UNable to provide EVEN ONE simple definition here. Yet more, to show you understand it. Anything at all.

All you was ranting about is some "true meaning of words"... while thoroughly ignoring that that is dictionaries are the only commonly assepted way to install such meanings.
That way you showed that you are mindless bonker who trying to "sound intelligently". Not an intellectual.



Q said...


\\That you seem to have access to a dictionary yet continue to misspell and misuse words is an obstacle you don't even have the willingness to address.

Looser's barking. :-)))

That is all Your Intelligent Highness capable??? To rant about opponent (diliberate?) mistypings? Can you understand it even. You are not the first one I met on the roads of internet. And I know that likes of you who cannot pose as capable opponents in discussion with logic and facts. But I long as found that after showing their such intellectual weakness... they start to seek desperately for a "flaws" in my speach. Flaws they can understand.

So, I decided to GIVE em what they seeking in advance.

That makes it much easier, to separate grain from chaff.

For mindless bonkers to show their true self.



\\There is some hope though. The more you type, the greater the probability that you will one day accidentally type something intelligent to read. Today wasn't that day. Tomorrow looks pretty bleak as well.

Yeah.
ALL is how I professed higher. I see it as only right and intellectual way to do that.
But, I profess that you will not do it... and only will continue your tryes to bury all with swine's mud and bull feces. :-)))


It is imposible to play chess with a pegeon, because "“The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over. Then shits all over the board. Then struts around like it won.”."

That is exactly what you did with this your last(?) words. ;-P

Swine that trying to reproduce pegeon's curling. :-)))) What a funny fellow.

Q said...

Well, I'll continue to entertain myself intellectually.

Here is definition of "theory of evolution." Blessed be Google.

"The theory of evolution is a shortened form of the term “theory of evolution by natural selection,” which was proposed by Charles Darwin"

"The Theory of Evolution is one of the best-substantiated theories in the history of science."

"The theory of evolution is based on the idea that all species? are related and gradually change over time"

"evolution, theory in biology postulating that the various types of plants, animals, and other living things on Earth have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations."



Even from this short elaborations easy to see that your "prominent disproval of my feable falacies" like this one

""All (of) the Universe is an embodiment of evolution" is not a "radical view." It's just wrong.

re: 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.


September 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM"

IS totally wrong. Opposite to Reality.

Because that is exactly because of Entropy... all that changes in time possible.

Physics Defines Possibility of Evolution. And Entropy first of all.
Because in the center of molecular machinery inside any living thing is Brown's Morion of atoms and molecules. And that motion possible because of Entropy.

Go enlight yourself -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Hardly you'd grow in understanding from it.
But.
There lots of "smart" words there, your could use in your next tryes to "sound intellectual". :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Q said...

It seems like THIS is the core of your beliefs and central disagreement in our discussion here. Isn't it, TC?


I prefer words to retain their proper and meaningful definitions.


But if words do not change its meanings there is no rise of knowledge possible.

But, as far as I understand your stance that is not a problem for you but quite contrary -- desirable result.

But... that is not how it happens on this Earth. You CANNOT stop the Changes, stop the Progress.
No matter how often and how loud you'd be screaming your: "You are wrong! You are wrong-wrong-wrong!!!". :-)

That's why your stance is hopeless...

Q said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_ontological_proof

Criticism[edit]
Most criticism of Gödel's proof is aimed at its axioms: as with any proof in any logical system, if the axioms the proof depends on are doubted, then the conclusions can be doubted. It is particularly applicable to Gödel's proof – because it rests on five axioms, some of which are considered questionable. A proof does not necessitate that the conclusion be correct, but rather that by accepting the axioms, the conclusion follows logically.


Means.
IF you accepted Axioms, you must accept that "proof". But that is SAME circular logic inside any religious belief "if only you'd believe, you'd believe".


While we, empirical positivists, proclaim "believing" ONLY in that, that able to hammer itself into brains even of total non-believer.
Like... you can proclaim "non-believing" in electricity with all your might... but if you'd use a fan to dry your hair while standing in a bath tube, and you'll drop that fan... you'll be fryed. :-)))
And that way one (for at least) non-believer would be eliminated. ;-P


Well. "Gödel would not publish because he was afraid that others might think "that he actually believes in God, whereas he is only engaged in a logical investigation (that is, in showing that such a proof with classical assumptions (completeness, etc.) correspondingly axiomatized, is possible).""


So, yes, he just played with logical framework he himself invented to push "logical base" under his circular reasoning.



For example

"Since necessary existence is also a positive property (axiom 5),"

How so?

"Gödel comments that "Positive means positive in the moral aesthetic sense (independently of the accidental structure of the world)."

But moral is relativistic.
Like in, when cannibal eats you -- it's good for him, while bad for you.
So, from cannibal's viewpoint it is positive to have somebody else beside him -- as source of food. But hardly that somebody would see it that same way, except it he is a cannibal too. ;-P


Means.
Godel proved necessity to have a God in a World full of cannibals. ;-P

(((TC))) said...

That is all Your Intelligent Highness capable??? To rant about opponent (diliberate?) mistypings? Can you understand it even. You are not the first one I met on the roads of internet. And I know that likes of you who cannot pose as capable opponents in discussion with logic and facts. But I long as found that after showing their such intellectual weakness... they start to seek desperately for a "flaws" in my speach. Flaws they can understand.

So, I decided to GIVE em what they seeking in advance.


Thank you for admitting that you are intentionally writing gibberish and nonsense. I was actually seeking this "interesting discussion" you lied about wanting to have. You put a lot of effort into convincing me that you're an idiot. Before you start crying about that refer to your admission above. You wanted to appear to be an illiterate imbecile, and you succeeded. I suppose it would have been harder for you to intentionally convince me that you're intelligent, given the fact that you obviously aren't intelligent. You're like Pee Wee Herman crashing his bicycle and claiming that he meant to crash his bicycle. That's as close to an admission that you know you're an imbecile as can be expected, and I appreciate your candor. Usually when I ask an imbecile such as yourself to be honest and admit their imbecility, they'll keep spewing their nasty insults and childish taunts but never admit to the stupidity that they are unable to hide. In my 30+ years on the internet I've never encountered someone willing to lament their own going full retard. I commend your honesty.

Now that we both agree that your clown show isn't worth my time or yours, I'll leave you to ponder how it was unnecessary to misspell words and use horrible grammatical structure to intentionally appear to be an idiot when your bizarre idea that you could somehow step outside the universe and see it as an "embodiment of evolution" was the biggest fart noise in your entire effort to convince me that you're an idiot.

Q said...

Unerdog barking, TC. :-)))

That is nothing but an underdog barking.

What else you can do... just to ignore my refutation of your earlier moronic claims you pompously proclaimed as "refutations".

Q said...

And... continue, continue, my little piggy. ;-P

Doing what I professed earlier -- that you'll try to flood this thread with verbal feces.
And declare your victory.
Idiots... they predictable as hell.

(((TC))) said...

I can understand how someone who has confessed to deliberately writing nonsense would express feelings of being ignored by the attention he's getting. Is this part of the act as well, or do you really not know that you refuted your ridiculous "all Universe itself is an ambodyment (sic) of Evolution" premise on your own by continuing to double down on a fallacy of bifurcation?

Your argument is as follows:

U = all of the Universe

E = the "ambodyment" (sic) of Evolution

U = E

The only thing you've "proven" is that you don't know the meaning of words, and that you're too stupid to present a logical argument.

Pull your finger out of your nose. You see the snot on your fingertip? That snot is neither all of the Universe, nor is it the embodiment of evolution.

Get a real argument.


Q said...

Your argument is as follows:

U = all of the Universe

E = the "ambodyment" (sic) of Evolution

U=E


Here is quote from my earlier comment here, where I revealed HOW it could be right from the beginning. But you idnored it.

1) There is Universe, and that is absolutely objectively obvious fact -- that it exist.

2) And that Universe works by laws of Phisics. Nothing else.

3) And in their basic sctructure, Laws of Physics not only allow, but pretty much Prescribe. For a Life to happen.

And well... what is there, in this Universe, exist. More complex and interesting than Life itself. That pretty much defines the reason for it to exist?

In that precisely sense. Universe is Everything. As it is everything and anything that we can see, that we can know.

September 12, 2022 at 6:28 AM



But I can do that in your moronic way too.

U = all of the Universe

L = Laws of Physics define how everything in Universe works

That's why

U=L

P = Processes in a Universe, while going in accordance with Laws of Nature go in that direction that creates Life, means Evolution (and ALL Universe takes part in it, presumably)

As its easy to see.

P mostly equivalent to E ("mostly equivalent", because our Science still far from complete knowledge of that Laws and that Process)


E = the "ambodyment" (sic) of Evolution

And P=E, as in my poetically exaggereated speculative hypothetical exclamation, which you keep calling "premise" or even "argument" recently, was just that -- declaration of a topic I would like to discuss.

Declaration -- that's not an argument. And not a proof. Well, it can be called premise, sometimes. But not always.



Got something to say? Smartypants. :-)))



continuing to double down on a fallacy of bifurcation?

Yet one example that you do not know meaning of words you are using.:-)))

From every time kind Google we have:
"A person commits the fallacy of bifurcation when he or she claims that there are only two mutually exclusive possibilities"

WAT "mutually exclusive possibilities" do you see in my words??? Where??????

But that is funny to admit -- if there is false dilemma on this page -- it is in your own words and general stance.
It's like "there is ONLY two kinds of people: those who are wrong and those who are right. I am right (all the time?). That can mean only one thing than -- my opponent(s) wrong".

Isn't it?

(((TC))) said...

There's the bifurcation fallacy I identified. The laws of physics are not evolution.

Evolution does not violate the laws of physics given energy inputs within an open thermodynamic system.

The universe as a whole is not an open thermodynamic system. There is no "outside the universe" source of energy powering thermodynamic activity "inside the universe" (unless *you* actually are the one filling a gap in scientific knowledge by arguing for the existence of God lol)

But evolution theory only applies to living organisms with genetic, heritable traits. You bifurcate the meaning of "living organism" to include stars and planets and thus the Universe itself the same way you bifurcate the meaning of "logical argument" to include the sheer stupidity that you have already admitted to intentionally spewing.

Thus, the Universe cannot be the "embodiment of Evolution" as evolution theory only applies to living organisms, and living organisms are a small, insignificant part of the Universe; and thus the Universe can not be the "embodiment of evolution" because the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics would demand there to be an external energy source for the Universe. Here is where your argument from ignorance fallacy becomes teleological. You "don't know" what is "outside the Universe" providing power to the whole Universe's "evolutionary" activity, but you're absolutely sure it's not "God."

Your entire argument for the Universe being the embodiment of evolution is founded upon a bifurcation fallacy, a teleological fallacy, and an appeal to ignorance fallacy.

The Universe is not alive
The Universe is not evolving
There is no "outside the Universe" affecting the Universe or its contents.

Your shelves are empty, you have no "interesting discussion" to offer. You've already admitted that you intentionally spew nonsense, and we both agree that you have spewed nothing but nonsense.

Your explanation for why you're spewing nonsense (aside from it being deliberate and intentional nonsense) is that "science doesn't know everything so maybe it is nonsense instead of what I've said.". Which of course is the circular reasoning / tautological fallacy part of your self-confessed efforts to intentionally and deliberately write nonsensical, stupid things.

Stop belaboring the point. I accept that you are intentionally writing nonsense.

It's disappointing that you intentionally self-sabotage any reason to believe you are capable of intelligent discussion, but hey, as long as you're entertained, you do you. I already have your confession of imbecility.

Q said...

\\There's the bifurcation fallacy I identified. The laws of physics are not evolution.

Ehm... and where "mutually exclusive"... something is here?

MY claims like "there can be ONLY oranges or apples!!! No bananas allowed" or something. :-)))

I see that only IN YOUR OWN WORDS -- in your claims that there can be ONLY "true meaning words"... like you don't know that in any language there is lots of SAME words that have SEVERAL meanings, as well as lots of DIFFERENT words that never the less have SAME meaning.

That is without even starting to talk about how words DO CHANGE its meaning throught years and ages, in different countries and places, in minds of people...



Evolution does not violate the laws of physics given energy inputs within an open thermodynamic system.

Yes! Of course! Ditto! It's true!
First true scientific claim from you in this thread.
+1 to you. Go take a cookie from a shelve.


\\The universe as a whole is not an open thermodynamic system.

That is one (of many-many other) thing we don't freaking know even how to come to discussing such a question, yet less how to prove or disprove it.



\\But evolution theory only applies to living organisms with genetic, heritable traits.

I *never* freakingly stated anything OPPOSING that.
But.
Framework of evolutional theory, rules itself of how animals can evolve, can be... and used in other spheras.

For example, there is so-called "genetic algorithms". And etc.



\\Thus, the Universe cannot be the "embodiment of Evolution" as evolution theory only applies to living organisms,

Yeah... as Evolutional Theory of Natural Selection and Origin of Species here on the Earth as it was discovered by Charles Darwin.
Yes. That is truism.
But why we cannot use wisdom we discovered in that theory to apply to some other processes, entities, spaces... I... dunno??????
That is what scientists DO all of the time.



\\and living organisms are a small, insignificant part of the Universe;

But.
To produce em. Us. Universe created stars -- so they sould give light and warmth to that miserly "insignificant part of the Universe".

And to make stars it created Galaxies, and higher up structures, with envelop all Cosmos.

Even better, to make Oxygen and Cardon for our bodies... it was labuoring for 10 (TEN) freaking billions of years, to create, then to blow up, to dispers all higher order elements that is not H or He. To create possibility of planets formation.
Then some more, 4 billions to make our Sun and shape our Earth, and animals on it... till we apeared.

Pretty much lots of work and involvement... for something that is so "small, insignificant part of the Universe", isn't it? ;-)

(((TC))) said...

That is one (of many-many other) thing we don't freaking know even how to come to discussing such a question, yet less how to prove or disprove it.

Wrong. Scientists already know the Universe is not receiving energy from "outside the Universe" because 1.) there is no such thing as "outside the Universe," and 2.) the Universe demonstrates the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics, the increase in disorder and entropy. Eventually the space in the Universe will expand to the point that everything in the Universe will be too far apart from each other to exchange energy and continue fueling the thermodynamic cycle. The energy will still be there in the Universe (energy is neither created nor destroyed - 1st Law of Thermodynamics), but it will be spread so thin that it won't be enough to power anything (heat death, 2nd Law of Thermodynamics).

The Universe is not "evolving," if anything it is becoming more and more inefficient to sustain life.

The Universe is not the embodiment of evolution. Science does not know everything and probably can't know everything, but it knows with 100% certainty that the Universe is not alive and not evolving and that nothing in the Universe will evolve beyond the limits of its thermodynamic system. The future of the Universe is mass extinction, not "higher" life forms.

On the fallacy of bifurcation, you are taking words with multiple meanings and choosing the meaning that makes no sense in the context of the argument.

God is love, love is blind, Ray Charles is blind, ergo Ray Charles is love, ergo Ray Charles is God. Stupid, yes? It is stupid for the same reason your argument for the Universe being the embodiment of evolution is stupid. It rests entirely upon bifurcations of the meanings of words.

Now, bow to Ray Charles as God, or admit you're an idiot again. I don't care what you choose.

Q said...

\\Wrong. Scientists already know

:-)))))))

I could call you an idiot. And you absolutely deserve it (not like that "imbeciles" and "idiots" you sending in my direction non-stop).

But, few people know cosmology. And even fewer can give adequate argument of what is true and what is false there.

No, SmartyPants, no. Scientists DO NOT KNOW it. Yet.
They not that AllKnowing as you are. :-))))))
Go read something MORE recent about that stuff.



\\Eventually the space in the Universe will expand to the point that everything in the Universe will be too far apart from each other to exchange energy

That is IF balance of Matter and Dark Matter allows it. ;-)
In accordance to recent discoveries and theories -- that is not the case.
That is ONLY ONE of several scenaries discussed.


\\The energy will still be there in the Universe (energy is neither created nor destroyed - 1st Law of Thermodynamics)

Still. ;-P
That could be not true with Dark Energy.
Go google it yourself. ;-)



\\The Universe is not "evolving," if anything it is becoming more and more inefficient to sustain life.

Well, do it going through Changes for at least?
It would be enough for my argument to have merit.

As not ALL Universe need to evolve as a whole... even some small part of it would suffice.
While it ALL undoubtedly would stay a backstage of such Evolution. As a whole.


\\but it knows with 100% certainty that the Universe is not alive and not evolving and that nothing in the Universe will evolve beyond the limits of its thermodynamic system.

I *pointed* to it from the very beginning of our qualm bikering.
What is Life?
What is life from the point of view of Physics?
What is life if not a thermodinamic system built of proteins and aminoacids, which in a step consist of mere atoms?
And as you said it YOURSELF, Universe itself is a thermodinamic system, and it full of atoms. ;-)

Your claims again are counter-factual.

But this time -- to your own words too.

Ohh, my, my... (facepalm)



\\On the fallacy of bifurcation, you are taking words with multiple meanings and choosing the meaning that makes no sense in the context of the argument.

Even if that'll be true... which you never proved, or even demonstrated (with quotes, yeah).
That is STILL NOT "fallacy of bifurcation" as it stated in definition.



\\God is love, love is blind, Ray Charles is blind, ergo Ray Charles is love, ergo Ray Charles is God. Stupid, yes? It is stupid for the same reason your argument for the Universe being the embodiment of evolution is stupid. It rests entirely upon bifurcations of the meanings of words.

Ehm? That was THREE sentences as THREE examples of a stupid sentence?
Or what? :-)))

If so. I totally agree with you. All THREE is stupid as hell. :-))))



.

(((TC))) said...

Show me the "scientist" that beliefs the Laws of Thermodynamics are wrong and I'll show you two morons, you and this "scientist" you imagine exists.

Why not call dark energy "God" or "gap-in-knowledge energy" or "ignorance-is-strength energy?"

Because dark energy is precisely what you claim God to be: nonsense pretending to be an explanation. You're playing with comic books and science fiction.

At least you were honest about intentionally writing nonsense. You're really good at it too. I can't really tell where your pretending to be stupid ends and your actual stupidity begins until you start calling me a pig and a dog, so I appreciate that too. Not many stupid people such as yourself can subtly shift between just being stupid and pretending to be stupid, so the bookmarks have been helpful. Please continue to help me understand when you're intentionally being stupid or just helplessly being stupid.

Q said...

\\Show me the "scientist" that beliefs the Laws of Thermodynamics are wrong

WTF???

Why should I do this??? While Laws of Thermodynamics that is ones of Laws of Nature, and I base my arguments on them all.

Are you (think that you) talking with a mirror? Or with some voices in your head? :-))))

Where this funny idea that I "must show that Laws of Nature is wrong" comes from???????

Or that is just a super-duper turned to 11 strawmaning -- I *must*(?) make claims that is opposite to MY thoughts and totally bonker simultaneously, so you'd be able to "win an argument" against me -- what a totally hilariously funny idea.

But not without merit. I admit.
Demand from your opponent to behave that obviously stupid, that calling him stupid would be 100% true.
100%-win strategy.
Only... where'd you find such an opponent... except into own delusional, deprived of sanity, delirious... mind. But can it be called "mind" any more?
That is more like generator of white noise... attached to a word spewing computer. :-)))))) Are you a bot? :-))))


\\Why not call dark energy "God" or "gap-in-knowledge energy" or "ignorance-is-strength energy?"

Go ask cosmologists about that. Why should I know?


\\Because dark energy is precisely what you claim God to be: nonsense pretending to be an explanation.

More like wild-card naming scheme.
It should be called somehow...
same as electron and neutron, like quarks (especially quarks) and etc.
So, how else you'd call a factor of evolution of Cosmos itself -- that showing traits of being energy, but that energy is not that obviously visible.
Hiden energy? Enigmatic energy? Dark energy?



\\\You're playing with comic books and science fiction.

Ehm?.. Projection? :-)



\\At least you were honest about intentionally writing nonsense.

But... you are, while being such a (self-proclaimed) smatrypants.
Cannot niether explain where is that "nonsense" in my words nor even give a quote of that exact words you see as non-sensical...
that is so damn funny, to a level of being adorable... like a bites of teethless baby puppy. :-)))



\\You're really good at it too. I can't really tell where your pretending to be stupid ends and your actual stupidity begins until you start calling me a pig and a dog, so I appreciate that too.

And it do not come, cannot come into your mind, that -- if you can understand of my words only very basic like "pig" and "dog" -- that could mean that there is something wrong with cognitive abilities of your own brain?

Well, of course you not. With such an impared brains that is freakingly impossible.


\\Not many stupid people such as yourself can subtly shift between just being stupid and pretending to be stupid, so the bookmarks have been helpful. Please continue to help me understand when you're intentionally being stupid or just helplessly being stupid.

As far as it would entertain me.
You see, I have no ceritificate of terapist of people with demaged brains.
And have not that much patience. Only curiosity.
So, just that moment my curiosity will be satiated, I will bid my farewell.

On a good side -- my levels of curiosity is just outstanding. So, it'll not be that fast.

(((TC))) said...

You're the one that has been trying "what if there's something science doesn't know yet that makes nonsense into truth."

Well, okay. Until then, it's nonsense.

You're welcome.

Q said...

Gone out of steam? Already. :-)))

It seems you from that kind of people who think that mere repetion of meaningless claims/words (like your "nonsense") can prove anyhing.

Coloquial name of which is, you know, idiots. But in your case it might be Ok, as you not opposed it. Are you disabled person with a severly damaged brain?


Or. Dog. Dog. Dog. Pig. Pig. Pig.
That is for your damaged brain to understand at least something of my words. :-))))


There still of questions I am curious about.


1) So what about your dumbass understanding of "false dilemma" fallasy, you keep calling it "fallacy of bifurcation". As if you do not know neither meaning of it nor even other names of it.

I'll remind you "On the fallacy of bifurcation, you are taking words with multiple meanings and choosing the meaning that makes no sense in the context of the argument."

HOW it this false dilemma?


2) God is love, love is blind, Ray Charles is blind, ergo Ray Charles is love, ergo Ray Charles is God. Stupid, yes?

So? Poets of all times are stupid? Writers of all times are stupid? Prominent orators and phyposophers of all times are stooopis, yes? :-)))

Or that is you who are incapable to grasp irony, metaphoras, figural language... which as we know is a definite trait of quite lowbrow people.


3) "But evolution theory only applies to living organisms with genetic, heritable traits. You bifurcate the meaning of "living organism" to include stars and planets"

What living organisms have in common with other lumps of matter, and what they have not?
They have size, as they take some space, and stars and planets have some size.
They have mass, and stars and planets have mass.
They have some processes going inside em, but stars ALSO have some processes going inside.

Even more.
Isn't Star recieves its traits from that cloud of gas it formed?
Isn't planet takes its traits from that protoplanet cloud and process of forming?

There is more then one way, apart DNA to inherit some traits.
And well, that ways important for animals too -- as progeny tend to live in same environment and do the same things as their parents.


4) Also, I will remind you of that you moronic try to sound "logically".

""
E = the "ambodyment" (sic) of Evolution

And P=E, as in my poetically exaggereated speculative hypothetical exclamation, which you keep calling "premise" or even "argument" recently, was just that -- declaration of a topic I would like to discuss.

Declaration -- that's not an argument. And not a proof. Well, it can be called premise, sometimes. But not always.



Got something to say? Smartypants. :-)))
""


5) Or this one.

"Means.
Godel proved necessity to have a God in a World full of cannibals. ;-P"

(((TC))) said...

Now you want to argue that you're not arguing lol.

These people you've mentioned that you allege have shouted you down as an idiot, have you ever considered that they may be correct about you? How many people have come to the same conclusion?

You keep commiting the fallacy of bifurcation, using the incorrect meaning of words with multiple meanings, presenting the false choice between wanting to describe the Universe as being alive and evolving, but the Universe is not alive, and it is not evolving. You are using the wrong meaning of the words "alive" and "evolving" and it is turning your premise into idiocy.

It's not a topic worthy of discussion. Ray Charles is not God. The universe is not evolving.



Q said...

\\Now you want to argue that you're not arguing lol.


WTF, man???

Stop talking to a mittor. Go check your brain to neurologists (or closest to your door shaman, as it seems you do not believe in scientific remedies).

I declared I want a discussion. Discussions are built on arguments and countre-arguments from opponents.

Of course I'm arguing. :-)))



\\These people you've mentioned that you allege have shouted you down as an idiot, have you ever considered that they may be correct about you? How many people have come to the same conclusion?

And NOW... that is NOT an ad hominem attack. :-)))) You decided to pursue -- to not comment your previous loses of argument (which was 5 FIVE times, as showed in a previous post), yes Smartypants?

Well, I'll answer.

You. Here. Keep shouting at me "idiot"... you can devise answer to your "smart" questions from that.
But you will not even try to look into that direction -- of intelligent self-awareness -- that you maybe canbe even-slightest-chanse-be wrong. Isn't it, Smartypants? You always-always-always are right??? As idiots sure thing self-ensured in. :-))))



\\You keep commiting the fallacy of bifurcation, using the incorrect meaning of words with multiple meanings

THAT IS NOT what "fallacy of bifurcation" aka "false dilemma", "false dichotomy" IS ABOUT.
Congrats, Smartypants -- you just keep showing that you ostensibly DO NOT KNOW meaning of words you trying to use in shallow tryes "to sound intelligent".
Yet one trait of... you know... i-word. ;-P



\\presenting the false choice between wanting to describe the Universe as being alive and evolving,

"Universe being alive" -- there was NO such claim from my part.
"Universe evolving" -- that is obvious fact, by today.
Space telescopes like Webb and older Hubble gave to as TONS of images of the Universe, Evolution of it.
You know. Big Bang. Scattering of Galaxies. Formation of Stars. And Etc-etc-etc.
Ignorance of an obvious facts -- that is YET ONE definite trait of an functional idiot. Incapable even to use Google -- that wonderous invention to have access to any knowledge that exist out there
Congrats!



\\but the Universe is not alive, and it is not evolving.

Are you renovned cosmologist? Or famous biologist?

So I should take this your blurts at face value without ANY factual confirmation of it??? What am I, an idiot? To you. :-))))


\\You are using the wrong meaning of the words "alive" and "evolving" and it is turning your premise into idiocy.

Yet again.
You neither quoted MY EXACT WORDS you "refuting" nor giving CORRECT meaning of the words you point to as used incorrectly.
That is loser's behavior.
That proves that you just freaking CANNOT do that.
Because you are fully functional idiot yourself.
Congrats!



\\It's not a topic worthy of discussion. Ray Charles is not God. The universe is not evolving.

Or... you just cannot do this, as your damaged brains of an fully functional self-revealing idiot... not fit for such a discussion.
Though, you still trying -- well, that is what an idiot would do, for sure -- trying to take part in a discussion idiots cannot, have no intellectual gizmos, to take part in.

(((TC))) said...

I already have your admission that you deliberately write nonsense. Now, it's a bit intellectually dishonest for you to insist that you've merely pretended to be an imbecile when we both know with certainty that you actually are an imbecile. You say you want intelligent, interesting discussion, but you don't know how to have one. You can't handle being disagreed with, much less being corrected. I absolutely do not care what imbeciles such as you think, much less what imbeciles such as yourself think of me.

You presented nonsense, I correctly identified it as nonsense, you even admitted that you deliberately write nonsense. If you had something intelligent or even intelligible to say, I sincerely believe you accidentally would have by now out of raw chance.

You can have a tantrum insisting 1 + 1 = shaving cream all you want, and divide by spaghetti over pop tarts and turpentine, but the tantrum doesn't change the fact that you're writing nonsense, not does it change the fact that you have admitted that you deliberately write nonsense.

I really hoped you actually did want to have an interesting discussion, but you're not equipped for one. Assuming I'm not the first person to ever properly identify you as an idiot, perhaps you should investigate why it is that so many people have frustrated you with this identification. Have you tried not being an idiot?

Q said...

\\I already have your admission that you deliberately write nonsense.

Direct and obvious lie. That's not what I said. And that is damn easy to prove -- just by re-reading this thread.
But your tryes to gaslight me... funny stuff, continue-continue.


\\Now, it's a bit intellectually dishonest for you to insist that you've merely pretended to be an imbecile when we both know with certainty that you actually are an imbecile.

From a mouth of self-revealingly proved fully functional idiot... that sounds so-o-o intimidating and insulting... NOT. (yawn) :-))))
Continue-continue, little piggy... or, maybe, adorable little scunk? More fitting of your recent behavior.
Continue-continue your struggles. It all will be fixed here, on the walls of all-remembering Web. For Eternity.



\\You say you want intelligent, interesting discussion, but you don't know how to have one.

Yes. I admit. It's beyond my ability to date. To have intelligent discussion with an apparent genuine authentic oblivious and ignorant i... ah, you obviously know who you are, isn't it?



\\You can't handle being disagreed with, much less being corrected.

Disagreed? With facts, maybe? With logic? With some decent rebutes for at least? Where???!!!
Corrected? But where is your corrections, dumbass? :-)))))



\\I absolutely do not care what imbeciles such as you think, much less what imbeciles such as yourself think of me.

Clearly. YET ONE definite trait of an idiot -- alergy to a facts and logic, and those who use facts and logic.
Of course you don't care, of course. My little skunk.



\\\You presented nonsense, I correctly identified it as nonsense, you even admitted that you deliberately write nonsense. If you had something intelligent or even intelligible to say, I sincerely believe you accidentally would have by now out of raw chance.

That... that you cannot phatome... may looks like "nonsense" to you, obviously. But is it?
But... that is needs an intact brain, trained to understand things, to destinguish grain from chaff.
Not one you posess, clearly.



\\You can have a tantrum insisting 1 + 1 = shaving cream all you want, and divide by spaghetti over pop tarts and turpentine, but the tantrum doesn't change the fact that you're writing nonsense, not does it change the fact that you have admitted that you deliberately write nonsense.

Ohhh... Thanky-thanky very much. For showing to me how your inner thought process working. :-)))
Now it explains (somewhat) how you able to see "true meanings of words"... though that meaning nowjere to be found, neither dictionaries nor even your own words.
Because (you think it is) there is noodles in your brain. And that noodles force you to spew all that malarkey. :-)))))))
That is most revealing. :-)))))))))))))
You have my most sincere gratitude for revealing such unforeseeable information. (it's hard to sneak into mind of an idiot... unless he himself would reveal it... but that is so damn rare chance)



\\I really hoped you actually did want to have an interesting discussion, but you're not equipped for one. Assuming I'm not the first person to ever properly identify you as an idiot, perhaps you should investigate why it is that so many people have frustrated you with this identification. Have you tried not being an idiot?


Running away, Smartypants?
And what about all that questions, about your own verbal (em, written) spewing you ignored?

Just admit it Smartypants that you produced this wordy backbite JUST TO NOT ANSWER to that questions.

To cover how cowardly and inauthentic all your screams about me being "idiot", "imbecile", etc is.
Because it came through your thick scull AT LAST, who exactly looking like an idiot here... and you didn't liked it.

So this is you frantic attempt to produce a thick and smelly smoke from your rectum, to cover your run away. :-)))))

(((TC))) said...

But I'm not running away. I'm still here, observing your idiocy.

Perhaps it is a symptom of your stupidity that you seem to not believe I have accepted your admission that you write nonsense . Believe me. As you have admitted, you set out to convince me that you're an idiot. I'm fully convinced that you are in fact an idiot. No extra effort on your part is needed. I'm sold. No really, I have absolutely no doubt that you're an idiot. If for some reason I ever have need for an idiot, I know who to call upon.

If ever someone does begin to doubt that you're an idiot, you can quickly refute that notion with your absurd idea that "all of the universe is the embodiment of evolution" and that you're not going to let the fact that actual science easily refutes that absurdity deter you. I mean, I can vouch for your stupidity if you need a credible witness, but nothing is going to sell it better than you jumping up and calling anyone that disagrees with your absurd "radical view" a pig, a dog, a skunk, and brain damaged and all the rest, and then when they finally accept that you will accept nothing less than being considered an idiot, keep going. Leave no doubt, then leave no more doubt. Be incessant with your stupidity. If you want to be named as the most stupid person on the planet, your antics certainly lead in that direction, but you're not quite as stupid as those that swallow poisons or set themselves on fire. You're minor league stupid. But, nonetheless, you set out to convince people that you're stupid, and you do exactly that. Weird flex, but you do you.

(((TC))) said...

Oh, I'll humor your fallacies some more...

"Universe being alive" -- there was NO such claim from my part.
"Universe evolving" -- that is obvious fact, by today.
Space telescopes like Webb and older Hubble gave to as TONS of images of the Universe, Evolution of it.
You know. Big Bang. Scattering of Galaxies. Formation of Stars. And Etc-etc-etc.


First off, you in fact did claim the Universe to be alive, with all that nonsense about stars eating and such, trying to anthropomorphize stellar activity. You tried to back away from that claim, but then you went right back to it. And dogmatically so. You feel it is essential to your argument.

Second, the Webb and Hubble telescopes do not show evolution, as they haven't captured any images of biological life forms. Biology is not astrophysics. Your argument is stupid.

You asked me if I'm a biologist or a cosmologist. I'm neither. But neither are you. But more importantly to this discussion, there are biologists and cosmologists in the world, and absolutely none of them commit the bifurcation, appeals to ignorance, and false equivalency fallacies bundled together in your argument. Absolutely no biologist believes the universe is evolving, and absolutely no cosmologist believes the universe is alive. Or vice versa. The universe is not alive, and it certainly is not evolving.

You can blither on about "if you look at the universe a certain way you can see it is alive and evolving," but that is nothing but pure nonsense. The "certain way" in your absurdity is the wrong way. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with actual biology and actual cosmology. You can look at things the wrong way all you want, but there's the inherent issue, you have abandoned science. You are going to need science to make a scientific claim, and you have no science. You can argue all you want that debris evolved from an explosion and rust evolved from iron and oxygen having sex, but you'd still be arguing for nonsense.

As I stated before, there's no interesting discussion to be had here. I don't have to prove you wrong, logically it's your responsibility to prove yourself right. You're not going to get there being nonsensical.

Q said...

\\First off, you in fact did claim the Universe to be alive, with all that nonsense about stars eating and such, trying to anthropomorphize stellar activity.

Are you an idiot?
But yeah... that is wrong question to ask, after all this prolonged "discussion", where you tryed nothing but lame backbites and gaslighting and strawmaning and... etc. From a miserly workbanch of an idiot who trying to "sound intellectual" on the Web.

Go reread it. I already 10 times or more repelled that miserly brains "sea lioning" of yours. :-))))

But well, repeating again and again same unsuccessful treaks -- that is just YET ONE definite trait of an idiot.


\\You tried to back away from that claim, but then you went right back to it. And dogmatically so. You feel it is essential to your argument.

Really. You are some exceptional type of an idiot.
I never saw that much idiocy in one comment.
Where you correctly quoting my precise words ""Universe being alive" -- there was NO such claim from my part."
JUST TO DOUBLE DOWN with your false accusations: that I think that Universe is alive, and I keep repeating it, and that it's "essential to my argument"... while evidances of it nowhere to be found, only screaming opposite direct facts, like in your own citation even.

Fascinating.

Just interesting, what you doing in a toilet room? Drinking from urinal and peeing into watersink? Just to be contrarian? Just to protest against rules written on the wall? :-))))


\\Second, the Webb and Hubble telescopes do not show evolution, as they haven't captured any images of biological life forms. Biology is not astrophysics. Your argument is stupid.

Yet again Merriam-Webster dictionary

evolution
noun
evo·​lu·​tion ˌe-və-ˈlü-shən

...

5: a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena


See, EXACTLY what I meaned.


\\The universe is not alive, and it certainly is not evolving.

1) I NEVER claimed it alive

2) And it SURELY do changing, was changing in the Past, keep changing here and now, and shurely will continue changing in a Future.

Can that changes be called "evolving"... that is open question.
Depends of meaning one desire to assign to that "evolving".
Call it Evolution. Or Divine Act. Or mere working of Chaos and Entropy...


\\You can blither on about "if you look at the universe a certain way you can see it is alive and evolving,"

Naah.
I'll say, the same as I was saying, and for now I see no reason to not keep saying it in the future.

1. That there is Laws of Nature.

2. That Laws not only Allow, but pretty much Prescribe for Evolution* to happen.

3. That Evolution* is just a part of much bigger Evolution happening in all of the Universe.

*: Evolution in a narrow sense as Darwin's Evolution of Species on the Earth, you keep idioticly trying to argue as ONE and ONLY meaning of the word Evolution possible.
While even dictionaries do not concur with you. :-)))
But yeah. Arguing with dictionaries -- that is definitely just YET ONE trait of an idiot.


.

Q said...

To the very first fork in opinions here.


Imagine there is a cafeteria, with shelves full of different cushions.
Under ordinary circumstances there is no problem -- lots of people can come in and have what they want.
But imagine that some special category of people would come. For example ones who eat jelly and nothing else. They would grab it all, and soon will start a fight over it. While there'd still be full shelves everything else.

That is easy to grasp and immediately clear idea behind "intra-specie competiotion is much bigger".

Well, one can attibute it to Theory of Evolution.
But.
To claim it as ONE and ONLY way to use it, it's like...

to claim that a car, that consist of wheels and engine and body and other stuff -- can exist ONLY as a whole, and it's parts cannot be used separately.

What a bonker's idea, isn't it?

(((TC))) said...

You tell me. You're the one trying race down the road with a windshield wiper blade in your hand and making engine noises with your mouth. And getting run over.

(((TC)))) said...

"But I have windshield wiper like car!"

:thump thump:

Q said...

Oh... now you truly showing yourself as complete drooling idiot, isn't it TC?
Completely without shame. As true idiot. YET ONE trait of a genuine idiot to boot.

Or you maybe think that this two last "arguments" is somehow virtuously wise?
Allowing you to "show yourself intelligent"?
Rethorical questions.


Or... you just gave keyboard to your kindergarten grandson? To say something "defeating" to that raging "idiot" you have broke your teeth on.
Or... that is stage of deterioration of your own mind. They say that old people become like a children. More and more. With age. :-)))

(((TC))) said...

Thanks for the clarification that you're not just pretending to be stupid. I can't tell if you're stupid or if you're stupid pretending to be stupid without the feeble flailing insults.

Q said...

Continue with kindergartner's back-bites, continue.

If that is a way to "sound intelligent" in your eyes, that is very telling. :-))))


Meanwhile.

To the very second fork in opinions here.

You said.
You lost me in several places, declaring that stars "eat" in "competition" with other stars is just absurd, and has nothing to do with politics.


People with schizophrenia often exhibit difficulties to comprehend figurative expressions, such as irony, proverbs, metaphors and idioms, with a general proneness to neglect the figurative meaning and to accept the more literal one.
Metaphor Comprehension in Schizophrenic Patients - PMC - NCBI
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC5954116



Well, you are free to admit it. And I will try to accomodate my writing to your feable mind definciencies.



I prefer words to retain their proper and meaningful definitions.

Or... maybe you an autist? :-)

Why do Autistic People Take Things Literally? - autism-all-stars.org
autism-all-stars.org › autistic-literal-thinking
One of the main criteria for receiving an autism diagnosis is having 'problems with verbal and non-verbal communication'.


Don't be shy. Admit it.
I long as wanted to talk with true one. (as people like to claim being one to excuse themself being an asshole)




The theory of evolution has nothing to do with politics or ideology or even astrophysics, it's nonsense to misplace the category.

I just asked Google of it -- "theory of evolution in political science"

Here is just a handful of results.

The Origin of Politics: An Evolutionary Theory of Political Behavior
www.cambridge.org › core › journals › perspectives-on-politics › article
In this article we propose that evolutionary biology can supply political science with a theory of the ultimate causes of human preferences and behaviors ...

Darwin's politics of selection | Politics and the Life Sciences
www.cambridge.org › core › journals › politics-and-the-life-sciences › article
In The Descent of Man (1871), Darwin speaks of “the principle of evolution” or, sometimes, of “the principle of gradual evolution.” Darwin's ...

Evolutionary Biology and Political Theory - JSTOR
www.jstor.org › stable
EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY. AND POLITICAL THEORY. ROGER D. MASTERS. Dartmouth College he traditional emphasis on human nature as the foundation of politics.

Evolution as a Theory For Political Behavior
chicago.universitypressscholarship.com › chicago
Abstract. This chapter provides a brief introduction to evolutionary theory, concentrating on its relevant applications to the study of political behavior.

how does evolution theory explains political behaviour
www.researchgate.net › publication › 3196298...
Abstract ; HOW DOES EVOLUTION THEORY EXPLAINS POLITICAL BEHAVIOUR ; Evolution theory stated that human evolved from animals' trend and development ...

The Political Gene: How Darwin's Ideas Changed Politics
www.newstatesman.com › culture › 2009/12
Evolution has never been just a scientific theory. Ever since it was first properly formulated by Darwin, the theory has been used to ...




PS As it's easy to see. Your flamboyant idiotic claims EITHER outdated OR bonker's as hell.
And DO contain zilch of intelligence or even pretention of being intelligent in itself.

(((TC))) said...

I'm really not interested in reading a "Positivist" demand I accept imprecise language in an argument that is devoid of meaning even without the imprecise language.

The universe is not the embodiment of evolution. You keep insisting without proof that it is. You're simply wrong.

Q said...

\\I'm really not interested in reading...

Then, just declare "I have no brains to discuss such topics" and leap into bushes to hide yourself, little scunky.


\\a "Positivist" demand I accept imprecise language in an argument that is devoid of meaning even without the imprecise language.

It sounds like you yourself do use "precise language". :-))))))
I'll remind you (for the sake of lulz)

And therein lies the other brain-exploding flaw of Positivism. Are you familiar with Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem?

https://youtu.be/I4pQbo5MQOs

Truth exists without verification. Math can't even prove itself, and you want to measure God with it?


Which shows that there is only ONE precise thing in your "precise language".

That YOU precisely DO NOT know what you are talking about.

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem.
As well as Gödel's 2nd Incompleteness Theorem
And Gödel's Completeness Theorem.
They all SHOWED that Math CAN prove itself... that is only miserly human's brains is not enough for that. ;-P


Or... here, next.
"All (of) the Universe is an embodiment of evolution" is not a "radical view." It's just wrong.

re: 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.


Evolution itself POSSIBLE in this Universe, EXACTLY because there is Enthropy.


\\The universe is not the embodiment of evolution.

That was metaphor.

A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase denoting one kind of object or action is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them: the person being addressed in "you're a peach" is being equated with a peach, with the suggestion being that the person is pleasing or delightful in ...
Metaphor Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › metaphor


Just go admit, that you are shizophrenic. Or autist. And just DO NOT grok metaphors. ;-P



\\You keep insisting without proof that it is. You're simply wrong.

You just keep ignoring my proofs. Why so?
Are you scared to admit, that you are wrong?
Or... you just have no brains to understand ANYTHING beyond simple "true meaning of words"? Means, you are idiot. Because that is idiots, have such little mind capacity, that they freakingly CANNOT grasp complex concepts, beyond direct and simple meaning of words.


Do you even able to grasp simple truth -- that that no matter how many times, how loud and how percistent you will call others "idiots", "imbeciles" and etc... it will not shrug it off that suspicion, that that is you are one who sounds like an idiot here. ;-P

I'll wait for confirmation with your very next comment. :-))))

Q said...

.


To the very third fork in opinions here.


Positivism doesn't allow you to make the metaphysical claims you seem to be making. Evolution isn't metaphysical, and thusly can't be inserted as the explanation for or driving force behind politics or philosophy. You can't make science from nonsense.

Science is bound by the verification principle... the sword it lives and dies upon. Nothing is true if you can't prove it.


First -- definition.

positivism | Definition, History, Theories, & Criticism | Britannica
www.britannica.com › ... › Philosophical Issues
positivism, in Western philosophy, generally, any system that confines itself to the data of experience and excludes a priori or ...


Well... EXACTLY what I meaned.
All my claims based on scientific discoveries here.
And even OBVIUOS FACTS (like with that cafeteria).


Then again.
To that "Evolution isn't metaphysical"

Yep.

What are your metaphysical thoughts about the purpose and origin ...
www.quora.com › What-are-your-metaphysical-thoughts-about-the-purpos...
Evolution is not purposeful. Evolution has no origin. Evolution is an effect of natural change. It is the outcome of natural selection, whereby unsuccessful ...

Is evolution a metaphysical system akin to a religion? - Quora
www.quora.com › Is-evolution-a-metaphysical-system-akin-to-a-religion
The theory of evolution is the explanation of the phenomenon, and a very big field of study in science. It is not a metaphysical system and not a religion.



ALL I have said based on latest scientifical discoveries: in biology, in evolutional theory applyed to different fields, in astronolmy, in physics.

Conclusion.

You are just a Know Nothing idiot, who trying to base his snarks on some outdated, distorted, wrongly comprehanded or even non-existing "knowledge".


And then to "Science is bound by the verification principle"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verificationism

Verificationism, also known as the verification principle or the verifiability criterion of meaning, is the philosophical doctrine which maintains that only statements that are empirically verifiable (i.e. verifiable through the senses) are cognitively meaningful, or else they are truths of logic (tautologies).
Verificationism thus rejects statements related to metaphysics, as well as fields such as theology, ethics and aesthetics, as "cognitively meaningless". Such statements may be meaningful in influencing emotions or behavior, but not in terms of conveying truth value, information or factual content.[1] Verificationism was a central thesis of logical positivism, a movement in analytic philosophy that emerged in the 1920s by philosophers who sought to unify philosophy and science under a common naturalistic theory of knowledge.


I think I demonstrated it quite enough. In that how I reacted to all your tryed to derail discussion into emotional ad hominem attacks and name-calling and childish moking and idiotic all way down "refutations".
Based not on logic, but on sheer desire to "sound intelligent".
Which IS self-defeating. QED

(((TC))) said...

ALL I have said based on latest scientifical discoveries: in biology, in evolutional theory applyed to different fields, in astronolmy, in physics.

This is nonsensical. You *can't*
apply biology and evolution theory to astronomy and physics. It does not make sense. Absolutely zero scientists make the claims you are making, because the claims you are making are absurd.

If you had a real argument you would have presented one by now.

Q said...

\\This is nonsensical. You *can't*
apply biology and evolution theory to astronomy and physics.

Ok. You ommited politics now. As I showed with my google-fu that you are not right.
So, you still banned in Google and need me to show it for astronomy and physics? ;-)
That's even interesting.

Here we go. OK, Google "evolution theory in astronomy"

The Evolution of the Universe - Scientific American
www.scientificamerican.com › article › the-evol...
In their theory the universe is forever expanding, and matter is created spontaneously to fill the voids. As this material accumulates, they suggested, it forms ...

stellar evolution | astronomy - Encyclopedia Britannica
www.britannica.com › Science › Astronomy
14 вер. 2022 р. · Evolving-star models showed that giants and supergiants are evolved objects recently derived from the main sequence after the exhaustion of ...

Theories of Celestial Evolution - NASA/ADS
adsabs.harvard.edu › full
FOR POPULAR ASTRONOMY. The human mind has from the earliest ages been attracted towards the great question of the evolution of the universe. As long ago as the ...

Astrophysics and the Evolution of the Universe - World Scientific
www.worldscientific.com › worldscibooks
All college students with an interest in science, especially astronomy, ... Radius and Temperature of the Universe from the General Theory of Relativity ...

Stellar evolution - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Stellar_evolution
Stellar evolution is the process by which a star changes over the course of time. Depending on the mass of the star, its lifetime can range from a few ...




And now about physics.

The Physics of Evolution
www.physicsoflife.org.uk › the-physics-of-evol...
The modern synthesis of evolutionary theory led by Fisher, Wright and Kimura has given rise to a quantitative understanding of how genes change in populations ...

Evolution viewed from physics, physiology and medicine - Journals
royalsocietypublishing.org › rsfs.2016.0159
The theory of evolution by natural selection was formulated by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace who presented their ideas to the ...
Abstract · Stochasticity and order coexist... · Physical constraints can and...

Evolution Theory and Science
ucmp.berkeley.edu › history › evotheory
The theory of evolution, formalized by Charles Darwin, is as much theory as is the theory of gravity, or the theory of relativity. Unlike theories of physics, ...

Evolution Is Not Like Physics
evolutionnews.org › Science › Evolution
A new theory of evolution extends Darwinian processes, making them into physical laws based on “learning theory.”

Quantum theory of Evolution - Medium
medium.com › quantum-theory-of-evolution-2...
They are made up of molecules, atoms, subatomic structures, and strings of energy and therefore should obey the same laws/regularities of quantum physics and ...

Life and evolution as physics - PMC - NCBI
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC4951165
Caloric theory mated with mechanics to give birth to thermodynamics; more recently, evolutionary design (function, goal-oriented change) mated with ...

The Evolution of the Universe - Scientific American
www.scientificamerican.com › article › the-evol...
Particle accelerators probe the basic physics of the high-energy environment of ... At present, there are no fundamental challenges to the big bang theory, ...

The Hidden Connections Between Darwin and the Physicist Who ...
www.smithsonianmag.com › science-nature › h...
The concept of entropy in physics began harmlessly enough, ... He understood evolutionary theory more deeply than most in that era, ...



And yeah... there is bonkers like you. I give you this ref to read and use their arguments. ;-P


Can Evolution Explain Physics? - The Gospel Coalition
www.thegospelcoalition.org › article › evolutio...
This addition reveals a tension between evolution and our most fundamental theory of the universe: physics. Physics studies the building ...

Q said...

Huh... comments really, do disapear...


This is nonsensical. You *can't*
apply biology and evolution theory to astronomy and physics.



No biggy, I'll show you my Google-fu again.


The Evolution of the Universe - Scientific American
www.scientificamerican.com › article › the-evol...
In their theory the universe is forever expanding, and matter is created spontaneously to fill the voids. As this material accumulates, they suggested, it forms ...

stellar evolution | astronomy - Encyclopedia Britannica
www.britannica.com › Science › Astronomy
14 вер. 2022 р. · Evolving-star models showed that giants and supergiants are evolved objects recently derived from the main sequence after the exhaustion of ...

Theories of Celestial Evolution - NASA/ADS
adsabs.harvard.edu › full
FOR POPULAR ASTRONOMY. The human mind has from the earliest ages been attracted towards the great question of the evolution of the universe. As long ago as the ...

Astrophysics and the Evolution of the Universe - World Scientific
www.worldscientific.com › worldscibooks
All college students with an interest in science, especially astronomy, ... Radius and Temperature of the Universe from the General Theory of Relativity ...

Stellar evolution - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Stellar_evolution
Stellar evolution is the process by which a star changes over the course of time. Depending on the mass of the star, its lifetime can range from a few ...



And physics


The Physics of Evolution
www.physicsoflife.org.uk › the-physics-of-evol...
The modern synthesis of evolutionary theory led by Fisher, Wright and Kimura has given rise to a quantitative understanding of how genes change in populations ...

Evolution viewed from physics, physiology and medicine - Journals
royalsocietypublishing.org › rsfs.2016.0159
The theory of evolution by natural selection was formulated by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace who presented their ideas to the ...
Abstract · Stochasticity and order coexist... · Physical constraints can and...

Evolution Theory and Science
ucmp.berkeley.edu › history › evotheory
The theory of evolution, formalized by Charles Darwin, is as much theory as is the theory of gravity, or the theory of relativity. Unlike theories of physics, ...

Evolution Is Not Like Physics
evolutionnews.org › Science › Evolution
A new theory of evolution extends Darwinian processes, making them into physical laws based on “learning theory.”

Quantum theory of Evolution - Medium
medium.com › quantum-theory-of-evolution-2...
They are made up of molecules, atoms, subatomic structures, and strings of energy and therefore should obey the same laws/regularities of quantum physics and ...

Life and evolution as physics - PMC - NCBI
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC4951165
Caloric theory mated with mechanics to give birth to thermodynamics; more recently, evolutionary design (function, goal-oriented change) mated with ...

The Evolution of the Universe - Scientific American
www.scientificamerican.com › article › the-evol...
Particle accelerators probe the basic physics of the high-energy environment of ... At present, there are no fundamental challenges to the big bang theory, ...

The Hidden Connections Between Darwin and the Physicist Who ...
www.smithsonianmag.com › science-nature › h...
The concept of entropy in physics began harmlessly enough, ... He understood evolutionary theory more deeply than most in that era, ...

Q said...

Traits of an idiot... as they are. On the example of TC.

In chronological order.

1) Inability to see an argument.

A: Well. Everything is. (fallowed with, flatly ignored)Easy to see, animals of same specie is most furious against each other in such competition -- because they eat same crop.
B: No, just no. Everything is *not* evolution.


2) Inability to parse even simple logical elqaborations.

A: Seems like we found a good topic to discuss.
(whole page of whatnots, ignored as if nothing happened)
B: Getting in the weeds of trying to determine...


3) Blindness to countre-arguments. And derailing discussion.

A: I beg myself a pardon.
(yet one page of elaborations, ignored)
B: Positivists hate me :P


4) Ad hominem.

A: Hah. But Positivism do not demand of me rigidity of thought... to start with). ;-P
(two pages of elaborations, ignored)
B: Pretty sure there are no Positivists running around demanding that lack of intellectual rigor be taken seriously.
Congratulations, you're not a logical positivist... you impaled yourself quite nicely.


5) Idiotic claims.

B: i.e. you've used the words "evolution, science, and Positivism" incorrectly.
(you know, ignored)
A: Well, that is damn easy to fix.
Just show the correct usage. ;-)


6) More ad hominem. With badmouthing.

B: I assumed from your poor grasp of English grammar and syntax that you might be more fluent in another language, and are struggling to communicate with native English literates. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you are not a blithering imbecile.
You have trashed that notion. Now I assume you're a blithering imbecile in at least two languages.


7) Ignoring admissions to behave civil.

A: Things of science, can be proved/disproved ONLY through *correct* discussion with logic and facts. Not with mere babbling and baseless you-are-wrongs.
GO REFUTE THIS. :-)))


8) Doubling down with basless "nots".

B: Evolution has nothing to do with politics or religion or astrophysics. That is not an attack on evolution theory. It's just pointing out that evolution theory has nothing to do with the categories of thought you are trying to apply to it to.


9) Yet one ignore of admission to behave civil

A: Or. I like this schema the most.
Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement: How to Argue Like an Expert
themindcollection.com › revisiting-grahams-hie...
As Graham points out, refutation is the highest form of disagreement. That's because it's difficult, which is why it's ...


10) Strawmanning.

A: My arguments was not about "everything is evolution" -- that was just a headliner, arguments was provided futher and was down to earth and detailed... but you ignored them. And instead chose to cherry-pick and twist my words to attack them as nonsense.
That is called Strawman Argument as it is defined, man.


11) Start of using swearing as "argument". To double down on more baseless "nots".

B: Now you're being silly. You premised your entire shitshow argument upon "all Universe itself is an ambodyment (sic) of Evolution" and have been stuck there ever since I objected to it. Your premise is bunk.
Or, shortcut, just admit you're an imbecile. It's not like you're hiding it.
(as always, ignored)
A: It is correct thing to play strictness in a discussion.
But clearly NOT the way you trying to do here.
As was clearly and in details described in a piece I quoted higher.



be cont.

Q said...

.


12) Inability to see irony.(in answer to relentless swearing and badmouthing)

B: If I'm a "murderer of everything intellectual," you must feel extremely safe knowing that you can't even convince me that you are intellectual.
So why all the panicked ad hominem attacks? Have some self-awareness.

A: Hah... you showed here with all preciseness that you do not have sense of humor. And that is one of most visible traits of an embicile. As well as inability to understand what is metaphora and etc. To keep into one's mind more than one short sentence. Congrats, congrats! :-)))


13) Even do not know how to call it, other way than...

B: they start to seek desperately for a "flaws" in my speach. Flaws they can understand.So, I decided to GIVE em what they seeking in advance.
Thank you for admitting that you are intentionally writing gibberish and nonsense.

...Unerdog barking, TC. :-)))


14) Pseudo-logic. Unknowing terms using

B: fallacy of bifurcation?
Your argument is as follows:
U = all of the Universe
E = the "ambodyment" (sic) of Evolution
U = E

A: But I can do that in your moronic way too.
(ignored)


15) Doubling down with wrong terms.

B: There's the bifurcation fallacy I identified. The laws of physics are not evolution.
A: Ehm... and where "mutually exclusive"... something is here?
MY claims like "there can be ONLY oranges or apples!!! No bananas allowed" or something. :-)))
(ignored)


16) Scientific illiteracy. But what can one waiting for, from an idiot? :-)

B: That is one (of many-many other) thing we don't freaking know even how to come to discussing such a question, yet less how to prove or disprove it.
Wrong. Scientists already know the Universe is not receiving energy from "outside the Universe" because 1.) there is no such thing as "outside the Universe," and 2.) the Universe demonstrates the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics, the increase in disorder and entropy.
A: No, SmartyPants, no. Scientists DO NOT KNOW it. Yet.


17) Blatant idiocy.

\\Show me the "scientist" that beliefs the Laws of Thermodynamics are wrong

WTF???
Why should I do this??? While Laws of Thermodynamics that is ones of Laws of Nature, and I base my arguments on them all.
Or that is just a super-duper turned to 11 strawmaning -- I *must*(?) make claims that is opposite to MY thoughts and totally bonker simultaneously, so you'd be able to "win an argument" against me -- what a totally hilariously funny idea.


be cont.

Q said...

.


18) Inability to answer to a questions. Flinching.

A: There still # of questions I am curious about.
B: Now you want to argue that you're not arguing lol.


19) Inability to understand metaphor. Even explained.

B: Oh, I'll humor your fallacies some more...
First off, you in fact did claim the Universe to be alive, with all that nonsense about stars eating and such, trying to anthropomorphize stellar activity.


20) Projecting.

B: You tried to back away from that claim, but then you went right back to it. And dogmatically so. You feel it is essential to your argument.


21) Childishness.

B: "But I have windshield wiper like car!" :thump thump:


22) On and on, on and on. Just same misinterpretations, zero understanding, doubling down with baseless "wrongs" and "nots".

B: I'm really not interested in reading a "Positivist" demand I accept imprecise language in an argument that is devoid of meaning even without the imprecise language.

The universe is not the embodiment of evolution. You keep insisting without proof that it is. You're simply wrong.

This is nonsensical. You *can't*
apply biology and evolution theory to astronomy and physics. It does not make sense.

A: Then, just declare "I have no brains to discuss such topics" and leap into bushes to hide yourself, little scunky.


23) Ignoring of direct facts.

B: Absolutely zero scientists make the claims you are making, because the claims you are making are absurd.
If you had a real argument you would have presented one by now.

A: (two pages of absolutely transpartently direct facts, ignored)

PS There can be added puncts from other threads... but I'm lazy. ;-P

(((TC))) said...

You're exactly where you started, unable to overcome the hurdle that your argument is stupid and unworthy of further consideration.

Your tantrum isn't persuasive either.

It's not that I "can't see your argument," but rather that I see your argument is stupid. Without merit. Bunk.

Going nowhere.

Q said...

\\You're exactly where you started, unable to overcome the hurdle that your argument is stupid and unworthy of further consideration.

Yep. 100% as it should be in talk with an idiot.


\\Your tantrum isn't persuasive either.

Yep. 100% as it should be in talk with an idiot.


\\It's not that I "can't see your argument," but rather that I see your argument is stupid. Without merit. Bunk.

Yep. 100% as it should be in talk with an idiot.


\\Going nowhere.

Yep. 100% as it should be in talk with an idiot.



PS Good ending. We came to an agreement. :-)))))))))))
If only you'd be so kind to declare that you are idiot in the very beginning.
But well, that way I would lose such a splendid chance to explore and fix in details of behavior of idiotus vulgasris in vivo.







PPS But, I am sure that it will not end here. By obvious reason. 100% reason. ;-)