.

And by a prudent flight and cunning save A life which valour could not, from the grave. A better buckler I can soon regain, But who can get another life again? Archilochus

Saturday, April 15, 2023

Now I know why the Caged Bird Sings...

4 The error of imaginary causes. To begin with dreams: ex post facto, a cause is slipped under a particular sensation (for example, one following a far-off cannon shot)--often a whole little novel in which the dreamer turns up as the protagonist. The sensation endures meanwhile in a kind of resonance: it waits, as it were, until the causal instinct permits it to step into the foreground--now no longer as a chance occurrence, but as "meaning." The cannon shot appears in a causal mode, in an apparent reversal of time. What is really later, the motivation, is experienced first--often with a hundred details which pass like lightning and the shot follows. What has happened? The representations which were produced by a certain state have been misunderstood as its causes.

In fact, we do the same thing when awake. Most of our general feelings--every kind of inhibition, pressure, tension, and explosion in the play and counterplay of our organs, and particularly the state of the nervus sympaticus--excite our causal instinct: we want to have a reason for feeling this way or that--for feeling bad or for feeling good. We are never satisfied merely to state the fact that we feel this way or that: we admit this fact only--become conscious of it only--when we have furnished some kind of motivation. Memory, which swings into action in such cases, unknown to us, brings up earlier states of the same kind, together with the causal interpretations associated with them--not their real causes. The faith, to be sure, that such representations, such accompanying conscious processes are the causes is also brought forth by memory. Thus originates a habitual acceptance of a particular causal interpretation, which, as a matter of fact, inhibits any investigation into the real cause--even precludes it.

5 The psychological explanation of this. To derive something unknown from something familiar relieves, comforts, and satisfies, besides giving a feeling of power. With the unknown, one is confronted with danger, discomfort, and care; the first instinct is to abolish these painful states. First principle: any explanation is better than none. Since at bottom it is merely a matter of wishing to be rid of oppressive representations, one is not too particular about the means of getting rid of them: the first representation that explains the unknown as familiar feels so good that one "considers it true." The proof of pleasure ("of strength") as a criterion of truth.

The causal instinct is thus conditional upon, and excited by, the feeling of fear. The "why?" shall, if at all possible, not give the cause for its own sake so much as for a particular kind of cause--a cause that is comforting, liberating, and relieving. That it is something already familiar, experienced, and inscribed in the memory, which is posited as a cause, that is the first consequence of this need. That which is new and strange and has not been experienced before, is excluded as a cause. Thus one searches not only for some kind of explanation to serve as a cause, but for a particularly selected and preferred kind of explanation--that which has most quickly and most frequently abolished the feeling of the strange, new, and hitherto unexperienced: the most habitual explanations. Consequence: one kind of positing of causes predominates more and more, is concentrated into a system and finally emerges as dominant, that is, as simply precluding other causes and explanations. The banker immediately thinks of "business," the Christian of "sin," and the girl of her love
--Nietzsche, "Twilight of the Idols"

56 comments:

Q said...

Given with "Evolution as a tecg"... how it can be any other way?

Evolution created biological intellectual(?) agent... and for them to act, to merely exist -- there is need to some urge(s) to act.

Isn't it natural? as hell. ;-P

Joe Conservative said...

So, evolution is the cause, and behavioral adaptation to exploit it is the effect. Why do I get the feeling that we'll all soon be living on hg Well's "Island of Dr. Moreau"... trans-humanism run amock?

Q said...

...evolution is the cause...

Em... I don't know even where to start here...

Evolution is not a cause, and not a reason, or whatever.

It's just heppenstance.

Local circumstances. Like Our Sun. Our Earth arounding it. Our Moon. And etc.


About other...

Dunno, how much of Lem's works are in English, yet.

Well, anyway, that is not a problem.

Same as in

Starship Troopers - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Starship_Troopers
Starship Troopers is a military science fiction novel by American writer Robert A. Heinlein. Written in a few weeks in reaction to the US suspending nuclear ...

Thersites said...

/Evolution is not a cause, and not a reason, or whatever.
It's just heppenstance.


So it's MOT a "tech"... it's a model for a tech?

Q said...

MOT??? :-)

well, most part of tech is heppenstance too.

Like tools, materials and workers available. ;-)

And yes, that is phylosophical question stated by Lem -- is Evolutional tech any different from our Human techs?

And his hope was that answer is -- yes.

That we, as humans, can devise and use any tech we desire. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Serendipity.... @@

Q said...

That's fuzzy.

While it can be (should be?) definite and predictable, can it? ;-)

Q said...

And that is not my fuzzy dreams or visions or... whatever.

Simple observation.

When Evolution tryes this or that form of an animal -- it either survives, or it perishes.
But either way -- information, very valuable engineering information about this or that solution -- it perishes too.

But we, humans, can catolgisy it. That's TOO DAMN simple. ;-)

But.
You can ask -- why we still not? If that is so simple?

Well.

First answer.
We did not had such capabilities... only lately, we started build computers and computer networks.

Second answer.
Our techs... that we devised to create so far.
They not very subceptable for such catalogisying...

Too heterogenous. Too fuzzy on the edges. Too dependent on human's participation. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

That'll change when someone turn an AI onto DNA samples from the fossil record

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Paging Dr. Moreau, your custom dinosaur egg is hatching...

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

As for me, I find "rationality" highly over rated.

Q said...

\\That'll change when someone turn an AI onto DNA samples from the fossil record

Naah. :-(

You, disappointing me.
Showing that you don't know about that layer of info that keep being generated in a process of engineer's work... just to get lost. :-(((


\\As for me, I find "rationality" highly over rated.

And that is... highly rational behavior. ;-P

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Now you disappoint me. Turn it lose on fossil DNA, and let it do for DNA what it did for Protein String mapping.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

:P

Q said...

\\Now you disappoint me. Turn it lose on fossil DNA, and let it do for DNA what it did for Protein String mapping.


Go take Eiffel's drawings. Ang rebuild from scratch his Tower.

DNA... that's just a blueprints...


And... go read abot epi-genetic. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Now, if you had the blueprints for every tower ever built, you wouldn't be able to tell from them how to design a new tower with features from two of them?

Even with epigenetics, you can't "express" genes that were never there from one set to the next "evolution" of it.

Q said...

Aha... and give that blueprint to that peruan bridgebuilders. ;-P

You forgeting about rich tradition and teaching that goes in hand with that mere blueprints.

That is the same as with DNA -- you'd not be able to replicate it without some foster egg-cell.

And to grow somthing big -- you'd need a womb. ;-P

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Books are the blueprints of teaching. "Liber" ... Latin for "books" and "free". The history of "technics".

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Books. Our "memory" stored "outside of our bodies".

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Books are human epigenetics... coded messages stored outside the body. The internet is the epigenetics of AI.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

AI can only exist as a human epigentic parasite (at present).

Q said...

\\Books are the blueprints of teaching.

To a tiny minority. ;-P

For all other robust pipeline of conditioning --> kindergarden --> school --> university (--> think tank? ;-P) needed.


\\Books. Our "memory" stored "outside of our bodies".

More like memo-viruses. ;-)


\\Books are human epigenetics... coded messages stored outside the body. The internet is the epigenetics of AI.

Naah. And naah.

Human's epigenetics -- that is relationship inside family. And all such things. ;-)

As for AI... well, depends on what definition one means.
And I mean -- that we have no adequate definition. Yet. ;-)


\\AI can only exist as a human epigentic parasite (at present).

Pfft.

All biosphere is a parasitic lifeform... of Sun.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Language is a code just like DNA is a code.

Q said...

That's... over-generalization. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...and Evolution isn't?

Q said...

How??? Just HOW? :-) Sherlok. ;-P

Q said...

I mean... it's like call a tree that fell across river... and your Golden Gate Bridge... as "basicly the same".

Of course... they both can be used to cross water obstacles... but.

Q said...

Well.

One just need to destinguish -- Evolutiuon -- as what happened (and keep happening ;-)) here on the Earth. In billions of years.

And our human word "Evolution" and what we think about it.

What of it "over-generalization"?

I see only that -- none.

Evolution of Earth cannot be it -- as that is ONLY ONE of miriads places in the Universe.

"Evolution" as word and scientific discipline -- I do not see how.
As it ALSO about that that happened here, on the Earth.

If only we'd be able to devise General Theory of Evolution in the Universe... but even then, it would be only "genralisation".


Or... my use of English err me? :-/

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Evolution=Change The Universe "evolves" (changes).

It's directionless and w/o goal. ?

Code/Intelligence would signify both a singular direction and goal. It's "predictive" of some end/goal/result.

So the Earth is one particular expression (form) of a planet from an infinite set of infinite possibilities of planets in the current universe. And there could be infinite universes and multiverses.

Our universe (and only our universe) could be described with code/intelligence (since we have no basis for developing code for any others). The evolution of our Earth might be described with code [language & mathematics]. The evolution of life on Earth might be described with code [DNA] and eventully [language/ mathematics])

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Your "General Theory of the Evolution of the Universe" would be the code for it. And yes, it would be an over-generalization if it weren't "specific enough" to describe (predict) in detail precisely how it happened.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Language is a code, math is a code. Math helps give the language code greater "specificity".

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

The point in studying DNA from fossils would be to describe the evolution of DNA... how it got built... so one could de-code and learn how to build "new" forms (specific/ unique outcomes).

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...The "Seldon Plan".

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...couldn't take "evolution" into account.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

It was only for "social" systems

Q said...

\\It's directionless and w/o goal. ?

There's two directions(goals) for at least -- time... and entropy. ;-)

Well, Evolution looks like natural consequance of that physical "goals".

Plus... local environment.



\\Code/Intelligence would signify both a singular direction and goal. It's "predictive" of some end/goal/result.

Intelligence? Maybe.
Not sure... but, maybe. Depends on definition. ;-)

But Code??? How???


\\So the Earth is one particular expression (form) of a planet from an infinite set of infinite possibilities of planets in the current universe. And there could be infinite universes and multiverses.

Naah... Infinity. Real Deal Infinity. Even Natural Numbers Infinity.
As Father Kantor teched us.
Quite different thing. ;-)



\\The evolution of our Earth might be described with code [language & mathematics].

Only with linear math.

But... it all UNlinear all around.

Means -- initial and all in-between values ALSO very important.

Like... simple example -- synergy between our technological civilization and... burnable fossiles. ;-)



\\And yes, it would be an over-generalization if it weren't "specific enough" to describe (predict) in detail precisely how it happened.

Obviously -- that's not possible.

Because.

You know that some mutation happen because of some X and gamma rays hitting DNA.

That rays could be produced by Super-Nova Star from far away... or even by galaxy bursts on the other side of Galaxy. ;-)

Evolution -- non-local event, to that extent, too. ;-)


\\Language is a code, math is a code. Math helps give the language code greater "specificity".

Math -- can be formalised to be performed in computers.

Language... not yet, not yet, maybe. ;-)


\\The point in studying DNA from fossils would be to describe the evolution of DNA... how it got built... so one could de-code and learn how to build "new" forms (specific/ unique outcomes).

Well... palaolontologist know how to do that... even without DNA.

Well... having it, still not helpful -- while we do not know how to make 3D bodies from one-dimensional string. ;-)



\\...The "Seldon Plan".

Well... do you know how his own, Asimov's views was developing. ;-)


\\...couldn't take "evolution" into account.
\\It was only for "social" systems

That... doesn't matter.
Socail systems evolve too. Basicly by the same reasons and principles (on the base of rich energy income from Sun).

There was not that much info about Evolution in 60-70-x.

Not that much as we have today (even with robust models, as you know from other thread already)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\It's directionless and w/o goal. ?
/There's two directions(goals) for at least -- time... and entropy. ;-)
Well, Evolution looks like natural consequance of that physical "goals".
Plus... local environment.


In Nature, evolution is w/o direction. Breeding (reproduction) is Random(ish). In the hands of a breeder (with "Intelligence"), it gains direction, as the breeder tracks both genotypes (hereditiable traits) and phenotype (observable traits)... and mixes them to obtain a result (ala Mendel's Peas


\\DNA Code + Human (breeding) Intelligence would signify both a singular direction and goal for Evolution. It's "predictive" of some end/goal/result.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

In DNA, the genotype is the "code". Code not stored in the genotype (outside the body), is "artificial intelligence". Knowing how to mix genotypes and predict phenotypes is a form of "artificial intelligence". The real or natural intelligence is in the heritable genotype (DNA). You can mix it arbitrarily w/o understanding of the code or any artificial intelligence (and get a randomized phenotype), or apply artificial intelligence and give evolution a direction to produce a statistically predictable resulting phenotype.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Random mutations from Gamma or Cosmic Rays... not predictable unless you know/ have measured the radiation environment. Which DNA stand element being hit, is unpredictable unless you have a shielding mechanism.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Even then, probably can't shield for neutrino's & other near massless particles.

Q said...

\\In Nature, evolution is w/o direction.

Sorry if my use of English can be somewhat misleading.

I already confirmed it when stated that there is no goal.

But still... physically, there is Arrow of Time.
And Arrow of Entropy.

Which bounds what "directions" of Evolution is allowed and what not.


\\Breeding (reproduction) is Random(ish). In the hands of a breeder (with "Intelligence"), it gains direction

Little problem here -- breeders themself NOT free.
And because they are under rule of Evolution themself and what they can choose also limited.

Compare it with Engineer. ;-)
Engineers much more slacked in what they can do. (but still, limited too. By Laws of Nature)



\\it gains direction, as the breeder tracks both genotypes (hereditiable traits) and phenotype (observable traits)

Yap! :-)


\\Code not stored in the genotype (outside the body), is "artificial intelligence".

Is this your definition?


\\Knowing how to mix genotypes and predict phenotypes is a form of "artificial intelligence".

et to?


\\or apply artificial intelligence and give evolution a direction to produce a statistically predictable resulting phenotype.

Ehm... that would be great, isn't it? ;-)



-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Yes my definition (artificial intelligence). There's also a "natural intelligence" that results from epigenetic factors and the wiring of biological neural circuits in the brain (intelligence).

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Intelligence is also the epigenetic result of a living organisms pushback against the current evolutionary environment that has been thrust upon him/her. It's the organisms "anti-environment".

Q said...

\\Yes my definition (artificial intelligence).

And what practical possibilities stems from that definition? ;-)



\\Intelligence is also the epigenetic result of a living organisms pushback against the current evolutionary environment that has been thrust upon him/her. It's the organisms "anti-environment".

ONLY antagonism?
No symbiosis? ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\Yes my definition (artificial intelligence).
/And what practical possibilities stems from that definition? ;-)


The more that I accumulate in a form that makes it easier to assimilate into h my natural intelligence, the earlier I can profit from it (reduce period of adolescence) and begin contributing to its' great store for xmttal to future generations (humans grow more intelligent over time (Flynn Effect)...
although it has been speculated that the Flynn effect is actually slowing down/ reversing now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN0fB-bYwGQ



\\Intelligence is also the epigenetic result of a living organisms pushback against the current evolutionary environment that has been thrust upon him/her. It's the organisms "anti-environment".

ONLY antagonism?
No symbiosis? ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Flynn (cont)
Perhaps we've maxed out the ability of our natural intelligence to take advantage of (utilize) external artificial intelligence.

...and yes there is a symbiosis relationship between the environment and intelligence, but the purpose of intelligence is to exploit the environment (maximally).

Q said...

\\Flynn (cont)
Perhaps we've maxed out the ability of our natural intelligence to take advantage of (utilize) external artificial intelligence.

Well... that's phenomenological ibservation.


\\...and yes there is a symbiosis relationship between the environment and intelligence, but the purpose of intelligence is to exploit the environment (maximally).

Naah. And naah.

What environment gains are? ;-P

And that second... looks like another definition of AI -- that goes nowhere. ;-P

Phylosophy of science? No. ;-)

Q said...

I'm not sure that we are on the same page here.

So, I'll try to elaborate it... on simple examples and metaphjorically.

How we do start a new science?

It starts from phenomenology -- we see something, and trying to verbalise it.
Verbalis it and to explain.

Like we see a cloud... and trying to "invent" a weather forecasting.

Oh, but that is second step already -- forming of "predmet of science".
Or that set of objects we think we need to reasearch to understand more.
Like a set of fish -- for ihtiology. ;-)

After that, third step -- most important one. That for which all sience gained its name and faim -- scientifical method.

That's it. Experiments. And unbiased discussion of its results.
That facilitated (was facilitated by?) intellectual honesty.

And then... math. ;-)


Why I talking about it?

Because.

I propose and see how to use it technologically -- if we know structure of something. Learned some new algorithm (like how to bootstrap new science) -- we can seek for a way to industrialise it.

Basicly. Like what Edison did. In his Invention Workshop.
He percieved all that states of "seeking for answer" in what he did.
And wisely (well, not that wisely -- that is pretty much obvious thing to do, isn't it?) devised a way how to increase productivity of process of invention.


What I tring to talk...

is pretty much simple too -- that with all what we get to know so far, from times of Edison -- we can devise Edison's Workshop 2.0, so to say. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

I thinks that you should take the ideas expressed in today's post on bio-electricity and develop a mechanical ion-channel based electro-mechanical AI-based equivalent.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

One that captures a reproductively mature set-point, and instructs modules to replicate the set-point map.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...using ion channels to communicate the set-point configuation.

Q said...

???

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

It's in the video, 5G for cellular organisms.

Q said...

Well... there is easier ways...

Q said...

In my lurking through Inet...

I have met such a entusiast of von Neiman's replicators.

Even with own "working" (aha, as symulation in computer) design.

But you know what. Even while it looks so dearing -- to have it all in one-stop-shopping manner.

Technologically it is totally not viable.

1) We still do not know how SINGLE known working replicatores -- biologial appeared.

2) That replicator should need to work in real environment... or, their usefulness would be staggering.

3) Even if we'd make one... as Drexler himself suggested -- we'd still need to lear how to design something BIGGER out of it.


Well... that looks like far call for a next 100 years of researches and development.

And given with currnt global political and economical sytuation -- it's possible that we would not have so much time.

Anyway... from personal perspectives -- that is not interesting too -- to be just a simple break in a wall, for some next generation to step on... how do you think?


Projects that could give something in 2-3 years, and good perspectives in like 10 years... much more interesting. ;-)

Q said...

Ehm???