.

And by a prudent flight and cunning save A life which valour could not, from the grave. A better buckler I can soon regain, But who can get another life again? Archilochus

Saturday, June 24, 2023

Is AI too smart to be an idiot?


Byung-Chul Han, "Artificial intelligence is incapable of thinking, because it is incapable of 'faire l'idiot' (He's too smart to be an idiot)." (Google Translate)
On a deeper level, thought is a resolutely analogical process. Before grasping the world in concepts, he is imprisoned, even affected by it. The affective is essential to human thought. The first affectation of thought is goosebumps. Artificial intelligence can't think because you don't give it goosebumps. It lacks the affective-analogue dimension, the emotion that data and information cannot entail.

Thought starts from a totality that precedes concepts, ideas and information. He moves already in a "field of experience" before turning specifically to the objects and facts he finds in it. The totality of the existing that the thought faces, is initially opened to it in an affective medium, in a psychic disposition: "The soul disposition (Stimmung) has already opened the being-in-the-world as a whole, and this is the first thing that makes it possible to turn towards..." Before thought is directed towards anything, it is already in a basic mood disposition. This being in a mood characterizes human thought. The mood is not a subjective state that stains the objective world. It's the world. Subsequently, thought articulates in concepts the open world in a fundamental psychic disposition. This precedes the conceptualization, the work with the concepts: "We define philosophizing as a conceptual question from an essential shudder of Dasein. But this shudder is only possible from, and in, a fundamental soul disposition of Dasein." Only this mood disposition makes us think: "Every essential thought requires that its thoughts and statements be on every occasion obtained, like the metal of the ore, from the fundamental soul disposition"

Man like Dasein is always thrown into a certain world. The world opens to him prereflexively as a whole. Dasein as a mood precedes Dasein as a conscious being. In its initial shudder, the thought is as if out of itself. The fundamental mood disposition puts him on an outside. Artificial intelligence does not think because it is never outside of itself. The spirit is originally beside itself or shaken. Artificial intelligence can calculate quickly, but it lacks the spirit. For the calculation, the shudder would only be a disturbance.

"Analogue" is what corresponds. Heidegger uses here the kinship between words of his language. Thought as an analogical process corresponds (entspricht) to a voice (Stimme) that determines it (be-stimmt) and tunes (durch-stimmt) to it. Thought is not questioned by this or that entity, but by the totality of the entity, by the being of the entity. Heidegger's phenomenology of mood disposition illustrates the fundamental difference between human thought and artificial intelligence. In What is philosophy? Heidegger writes: "The corresponder (Das Ent-sprechen) hears the voice of a call. What we are told as the voice of being, determines (be-stimmt) our correspondence. "Correspond" then means: to be determined, être disposé, by the being of the entity. [...] Correspondence is necessarily, and always, not just be determined accidentally and occasionally. It is a state of determination. And it is only from the psychic disposition that the saying of correspondence receives its precision, its determined being." Thought hears, better, listens and pays attention. Artificial intelligence is deaf. He doesn't hear that "voice."

The "beginning of a truly living philosophizing" is, according to Heidegger, the "awakening of a fundamental psychic disposition" that "determines us in a fundamental way." The fundamental mood disposition is the force of gravity that gathers words and concepts around it. Without such a psychic disposition, thought lacks an organizing framework: "If the fundamental psychic disposition is absent, everything is a forced din of empty concepts and words." The affective totality that occurs in this psychic disposition is the analogical dimension of thought, which artificial intelligence cannot reproduce.

According to Heidegger, the history of philosophy is a history of that fundamental psychic disposition. Descartes' thought, for example, is determined by doubt, while Plato's is determined by astonishment. Descartes' cogito is based on the fundamental psychic disposition of doubt. Heidegger characterizes the psychic disposition of modern philosophy as follows: "For him [Descartes], doubt constitutes that psychic disposition which centers on the ens certum, that which exists with certainty. Certitudo is then that firmness of the ens qua ens which results from the indubitability of the cogito (ergo) sum for the ego of man. [...] The psychic disposition of confidence in the ever-attainable absolute certainty of knowledge will be pathos, and therefore the arche of modern philosophy." Pathos is the beginning of thought. Artificial intelligence is apathetic, that is, without pathos, without passion. Just calculate.

Artificial intelligence does not have access to horizons that are glimpsed instead of being clearly defined. But this "glimpse" is not a "first rung on the ladder of knowledge." Rather, it opens the "anteroom" "that contains, that is, hides everything that can be known". Heidegger locates this glimpse in the heart. Artificial intelligence has no heart. The thought of the heart perceives and gropes spaces before working with concepts. In this it differs from calculation, which does not need spaces: "If this knowledge 'of the heart' is a glimpse, we must never take this glimpse for a thought that fades into darkness. It has its own clarity and resolution, and yet it remains fundamentally distinct from the security of the calculating mind."

Following Heidegger, artificial intelligence would be incapable of thinking to the extent that it is closed to that totality in which thought has its origin. It has no world. The totality as a semantic horizon encompasses more than the objectives envisaged in artificial intelligence. Thinking proceeds very differently from artificial intelligence. The totality constitutes the initial framework from which the facts are formed. The change of mood disposition as a change of frame is like a paradigm shift that gives rise to new facts. Artificial intelligence, on the other hand, processes predetermined facts that remain the same. It cannot give itself new facts.

Big data suggests absolute knowledge. Things reveal their secret correlations. Everything becomes calculable, predictable and controllable. A whole new era of knowledge is being heralded. Actually, it is a rather primitive way of knowing. Data mining discovers correlations. According to Hegel's logic, correlation represents the lowest way of knowing. The correlation between A and B says: A often occurs along with B. With correlation it is not known why this happens. It just happens. Correlation indicates probability, not necessity. It differs from causality, which establishes a need: A cause B. Reciprocal action represents the next level of knowledge. It says: A and B condition each other. A necessary connection is established between A and B. However, at this level of knowledge it is not yet understood: "If we stop at the consideration of a certain content merely from the point of view of reciprocal action, it is in truth a totally incomprehensible behavior"

Only the "concept" captures the connection between A and B. It is the C that connects A and B. By means of C, the relationship between A and B is understood. The concept reforms the framework, the whole, which brings A and B together and clarifies their relationship. A and B are only the "moments of a superior third". Knowledge in the proper sense is only possible at the level of concept: "The concept is what is inherent in things themselves, which tells us that they are what they are, and, therefore, to understand an object means to be aware of its concept." Only from the all-encompassing concept C can the relationship between A and B be fully understood. Reality itself is transmitted by knowing when it is grasped by the concept.

Big data provides rudimentary knowledge. It remains in correlations and pattern recognition, in which, however, nothing is understood. The concept forms a totality that includes and comprehends its moments in itself. Totality is a final form. The concept is a conclusion. "Everything is conclusion" means "everything is concept" [60]. Reason is also a conclusion: "Everything rational is a conclusion." Big data is additive. The additive does not form a totality, an end. It lacks the concept, that is, what unites the parts into a whole. Artificial intelligence never reaches the conceptual level of knowledge. He does not understand the results of his calculations. Calculus differs from thinking in that it does not form concepts and does not advance from one conclusion to another.

Artificial intelligence learns from the past. The future he calculates is not a future in the proper sense of the word. The former is blind to events. But thought has an eventful character. It puts something completely different in the world. Artificial intelligence lacks the negativity of breakup, which causes the truly new to break through. Everything remains the same. "Intelligence" means to choose between (inter-legere). Artificial intelligence only chooses between options given in advance, ultimately between one and zero. It does not leave the previously given towards the imtransited.

Emphatic thinking begets a new world. He is on his way to the completely other, to another place: "The word of thought is poor in images and devoid of stimuli. [...] However, thinking changes the world. It changes it in the deeper, darker and darker pit which is an enigma, and which, being darker, is the promise of greater clarity." The intelligence of machines does not reach that depth of the dark well of an enigma. Information and data have no depth. Human thinking is more than calculation and problem solving. It clears and illuminates the world. It gives rise to a completely different world. The intelligence of machines entails above all the danger that human thought will resemble it and become itself mechanical.

Thought is nourished by eros. In Plato, logos and eros enter into an intimate relationship. Eros is the condition of possibility of thought. Heidegger also follows Plato in this. On the way to the impassed, thought is inspired by eros: "I call it eros, the oldest of the gods in the words of Parmenides. The flapping of the wings of that god moves me every time I take an essential step in thought and venture into the impassed." Eros is absent in the calculation. Data and information do not seduce.

According to Deleuze, philosophy begins with a "faire l'idiot". It is not intelligence, but idiotism, that characterizes thought. Every philosopher who produces a new language, a new thought, a new language, is an idiot. He says goodbye to all that has been. It dwells that virgin immanence, not yet described, of thought. With this "faire l'idiot", thought dares to jump to the totally other, to the untraveled. The history of philosophy is a history of idiotisms, of idiotic leaps: "The ancient idiot intended to reach some evidence that he would arrive at by himself: in the meantime he would doubt everything [...]. The modern idiot does not pretend to arrive at any evidence [...], he wants the absurd, it is not the same image of thought." Artificial intelligence is incapable of thinking, because it is incapable of "faire l'idiot". He is too smart to be an idiot.

87 comments:

Z said...

Hi, FJ! I can't read anything, or hear anything, about AI because I think it's a much bigger threat than nukes...honestly. There is nothing it can't seem to do and I see that the only 'good' things it does is do jobs human beings would otherwise be doing............so HOW MANY ARE GOING TO LOSE JOBS BECAUSE OF IT? And that's the UP side, in my opinion!!
I'm scared of it! ;-(

Q said...

Golem: "There is NO Intelligence if there is different kinds of intelligence". ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Hi Z! I wouldn't let AI's "intelligence" scare me very much. Just how people will use it... and "automate" unintelligent systems . Yes, it could eliminate all "middle management" jobs. Again, much like robotics, I see that eventuality simply as an "excess of capital". And who knows, maybe it's a good thing.... removing the "economics of product development" as a mediator for "social relations".... a step in the direction of a "Star Trek" capitalism, and a primacy of non-monetary based social "values".

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

@Q,

If there are "many virtues" does that mean that there is "no virtue"? I suspect there is a symbiosis of intelligences, much as there is a symbiosis of virtues (ala "cardinal" virtues) temperance:courage::justice:wisdom corresponding to a "meden agan" between these intelligences.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

When you look at how the brain functions... you can "see" their organization (by the senses). Smell:Taste::Sight:Hearing:::touch::pain:pleasure

Plato's Laws posits a need for an intelligence of pleasure to counter the virtues of the intelligence of "pain" possessed by the Spartans and Cretans, lest they be "corrupted". No pain no gain but pleasure in measure.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

btw - There can be "too much" intelligence. It tends to make it's owner "neurotic".

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

"Honest Annie?"

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...just as too much courage can make one "rash" or too much temperance "lazy".

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

A "meden agan" of intelligence that best matches the current social relations in a society.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

A "meden agan" of "opposed intelligences".

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

"Do it!" vs. "Don't do it!"

Anonymous said...

\\"Do it!" vs. "Don't do it!"

And WHAT? And HOW?

Much more important questions, isn't it?



\\"Honest Annie?"

Do you mean MacGaffin?



\\btw - There can be "too much" intelligence. It tends to make it's owner "neurotic".

Oh. You have menzura Zoili?
To measure inteligence. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

And WHAT? And HOW?
Much more important questions, isn't it?


Only if the answer to "Do it" was yes.

Anonymous said...

Like "Watch out! Do not hit your fingers with a hammer" ;-)

Anonymous said...

Means... in case of "Don't do it!"

Questions like WHAT and HOW??? They even more important. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Those questions do give the imperative (Do it, Do it NOT) more/less force (strength of conviction).

Q said...

Well... and from where comes motivation itself?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Drives entangled with Desires.

Anonymous said...

How you have said it... potAto potatO?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

No, drives tell me what I want. Desires tell me what YOU would want.

Anonymous said...

Decires... that is just things learned through life we habit to take as granted. Yawn.
Things feeled lack of.

I interested (by obvious and known to you rweaons) in motivation to find new things, unseen, unvisioned.

Like Columbus and New World. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Then take heed of Diotima's speech in Socrates' dialogue from Plato (and Xenophon's) "Symposium". For in it you will discover the truly "mixed" nature of man and the universe (Plato, "Philebus").

Anonymous said...

\\resembles the philosopher who is also in a mean between the wise and the ignorant.

Anonymous said...

""That the distinction is a fallacy is obvious; it is almost acknowledged to be so by Socrates himself. For he who has beauty or good may desire more of them; and he who has beauty or good in himself may desire beauty and good in others. The fallacy seems to arise out of a confusion between the abstract ideas of good and beauty, which do not admit of degrees, and their partial realization in individuals.""


To all other... there is modern notion of "selfish gene". ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

If you desire a discussion of pure absolutes, I suggest you read Plato's "Parmenides" (If One is not, then nothing is). For the One is the soul, and beauty and goodness, mere "qualities".

Shakespeare, "Merchant of Venice"

PORTIA, as Balthazar:
The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
’Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The thronèd monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptered sway.
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute to God Himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God’s
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this:
That in the course of justice none of us
Should see salvation. We do pray for mercy,
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea,
Which, if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence ’gainst the merchant
there.

Anonymous said...

I know only one absolute -- Infinity.

But that, is inaccessible to us, miserly humans.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

That's your One? I agree as to its' inaccessibility.

ps What about "forever"? Is that the same, or different as an absolute)?

ie - Space-Time Infinity-Forever? Do you agree to the "division" or are the two (if they are two) "whole"?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Infinity. Infinite time, space, ...?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

The Ultimate Power of Infinity Stones
The Six Infinity Stones:
Space
Reality
Power
Mind
Time
Soul

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

So then, if infinity is One, what is nothing? 0? The Di-alectic begins. Is it a part of "All"? Or a separate "None"?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Zero is the "limit" to infinity. The "limit within which a certain "definition" (infinity) applies and which is excluded from perhaps another (infinity plus one).

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Call zero the "edge" of "our" infinite uni-verse.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Does Emergence ever transcend the "limit" of the infinite. Or remain Immanent within it. Or have we now entered the realm of unintelligibility (ala "Solaris")?

Anonymous said...

\\Infinity. Infinite time, space, ...?


Kantor to your service here. ;-)




\\That's your One? I agree as to its' inaccessibility.

No. Just limitation I admit. ;-)

I do not pray to "Great Infinity" in try to sleaze it out to my favor, if that's what you ask? ;-P



\\ps What about "forever"? Is that the same, or different as an absolute)?

Modern Physics seems like gave answer to that.

All question that remains -- is our universe banal FSM... or, there's something more to it.



\\So then, if infinity is One, what is nothing? 0? The Di-alectic begins. Is it a part of "All"? Or a separate "None"?

What is dialectic?

Some mumba-jumbo from the soviet past... to me.



\\ (infinity plus one).

Kantor shaking his head here...




\\Does Emergence ever transcend the "limit" of the infinite. Or remain Immanent within it. Or have we now entered the realm of unintelligibility (ala "Solaris")?

Teaching of Solaris -- it's not that that there is something that "unintelligible"...

but that that WE do not want to bend ourself enough... to understand it. ;-)

Well... that is MY assesment only. We cannot ask Lem anymore (though, he probbly dearly wanted being asked, such things... who knows)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Dialectic is a division of a concept into two parts (ie- pro-con), so that the wholes can be described as a sum of its' parts, and each part compromises elements of the whole. It's "Greek"... not Soviet.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Is the nothing a part of the all? Or is the all bounded by the nothing?

Dialectice. Two "parts". Two hypothesis. Both "true"? logically? qualitatively/materially?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Divide infinity. Time-space-power-mind-soul-reality. All different "parts" or qualities? We use space-time to describe reality in physics. Mind-soul in meta-physics. Power?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Divide FSM. Hardware/Software?

Anonymous said...

\\Dialectic is a division of a concept into two parts (ie- pro-con), so that the wholes can be described as a sum of its' parts, and each part compromises elements of the whole. It's "Greek"... not Soviet.

Then... I already answered to it.

I prefer Cybernetics. ;-)

You know -- equilibrium. Positive and negative feedback loops.

Etc.



\\Is the nothing a part of the all? Or is the all bounded by the nothing?

Math.

Russell's Paradox.



\\Divide infinity.

Kantor, again. ;-)



\\Time-space-power-mind-soul-reality. All different "parts" or qualities? We use space-time to describe reality in physics. Mind-soul in meta-physics. Power?

Do the fire MAIN structural element of everything?

Or is it air? Ethereum? ;-)



\\Divide FSM. Hardware/Software?

Ehm???

Final state machine. Or final automaton. That is just a conceptual framework.

Realisation -- that is question of engineering.


-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Sounds a bit more like fetishistic disavowal to me. :(

Anonymous said...

When you hold a hammer... everything looks like knail.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

When you're a programmer, everything looks like a computer...or FSM

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

ps - What else is in YOUR toolbox/

Anonymous said...

\\When you're a programmer, everything looks like a computer...or FSM

Yu-u-up!

And when you engineer?

And when you phylosopher?

And when you...

Oh, that swamp of meta-talk, meta-shit, meta-thoughts. ;-P




-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

No, not just engineer. "Systems Engineer". Meta.
BS. then MS. Now...???

Anonymous said...

Where'd you be going... if you on the top of the mountain already?

Anonymous said...

\\-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...
recapt firat 11 minutes...Social systems are of three types... autopoetic (reproduces itself like the economy), Interactions (time limited f-t-f with doctor/dentists), organizations (performed hierarchies like university)


Lem have written about Social systems on the scale of Universe...

what MORE general approach can propose you, or anybody else? ;-)



\\Social systems are not real, they are actualized in comms between people. They're persistent, but NOT real.

Oh... that is fallacy I started from -- do Information are separate substance? Or is it just a part of the Universe.

What would be your answer?

Another word -- on what ladder of phylosophers do you stand? ;-)



\\We need a new social theory of truth (a code of rules which transfers reductions of experience from one to others?)

Well.....



\\ In the swampy terrain of the ecological problem, the moral should demonstrate the saving way. But are its fundamentals reliable at all?

Swamp of ignorance and stupidity -- dangerous terrain.



\\And my view is, that in modern society, it is increasingly rare that situatins are really promoted, developed, or can be handled if you moralize.

Yap.

That's called pragmatics.

Ohh... good that I double-checked.

dictionary.cambridge.org › prag...
pragmatics: 1. the study of how language is affected by the situation in which it is used, of how language is…

That could create lots of misunderstanding, no?

What I mean is "being pragmatic"...



\\Every system in the world is always divided between the system and environment.

NON-systems engineering POV.

And that seems like WHOLE problem with all that talks....

False Dishotomy -- we are PART of Nature, not something that can segregate from it... from whole Universe.









-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Where'd you be going... if you on the top of the mountain already?

Exploring.


\\-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...
recapt firat 11 minutes...Social systems are of three types... autopoetic (reproduces itself like the economy), Interactions (time limited f-t-f with doctor/dentists), organizations (performed hierarchies like university)
/Lem have written about Social systems on the scale of Universe...
what MORE general approach can propose you, or anybody else? ;-)


So did Asimov and Herbert.


\\Social systems are not real, they are actualized in comms between people. They're persistent, but NOT real.
/Oh... that is fallacy I started from -- do Information are separate substance? Or is it just a part of the Universe.
What would be your answer?
Another word -- on what ladder of phylosophers do you stand? ;-)


It's "reality" depends upon the information, and the source. For it includes the communicating/ tranmitting subject's "imaginary" and his "jouissance" and the receivers "imaginary and jousissance", or even a neutral 3rd party "observer's". In other words, each has a slightly different "reality" depending upon the information being communicated. It may be "meant" one way and "misunderstood".


\\We need a new social theory of truth (a code of rules which transfers reductions of experience from one to others?)
/Well.....


To account for individual imaginaries and jouissance. A better comm protocol.



\\ In the swampy terrain of the ecological problem, the moral should demonstrate the saving way. But are its fundamentals reliable at all?
Swamp of ignorance and stupidity -- dangerous terrain.


I don't disagree. But then if a new human comm protocol removes imaginaries and jousissance...???


\\And my view is, that in modern society, it is increasingly rare that situatins are really promoted, developed, or can be handled if you moralize.
/Yap.
That's called pragmatics.
Ohh... good that I double-checked.
dictionary.cambridge.org › prag...
pragmatics: 1. the study of how language is affected by the situation in which it is used, of how language is…
That could create lots of misunderstanding, no?
What I mean is "being pragmatic"...


That's the point, isn't it? Moralizing distorts/ slants the "truth comm protocol". Morality can be its' own "protocol".


\\Every system in the world is always divided between the system and environment.
/NON-systems engineering POV.
And that seems like WHOLE problem with all that talks....
False Dishotomy -- we are PART of Nature, not something that can segregate from it... from whole Universe.


It's a Systems ANALYSES pov. You have a universe. You draw a circle around a part of it, and call it "the system" to be analysed. That doesn't mean that you only look "inside" the encircled system and analyse that part. You must consider what's "outside" the system boundary, and crosses it... "transcends" it. The environment in which the encircled "system" swims.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...and not just one environment, but different scenarios... representing past/ present/ future

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...or you pick... to simulate/ optimize/ test money making ability, or improve truth comm protocol.

Anonymous said...

\\Where'd you be going... if you on the top of the mountain already?

\\Exploring.

Yap.

But, that nagging questions again. WHAT and HOW. ;-)

Isn't it more interesting (and productive) to explore with new tools, new realms. ;-)



\\So did Asimov and Herbert.

Nay.

I mean on base of science. And not some wishi-washi wishful thinking.


\\It's "reality" depends upon the information, and the source. For it includes the communicating/ tranmitting subject's "imaginary" and his "jouissance" and the receivers "imaginary and jousissance", or even a neutral 3rd party "observer's". In other words, each has a slightly different "reality" depending upon the information being communicated. It may be "meant" one way and "misunderstood".

I take it as answer -- subjective.

But who exactly? Materialist? Idealist? ;-)



\\To account for individual imaginaries and jouissance. A better comm protocol.

Protocol need to work on the base of some material medium... ;-)



\\But then if a new human comm protocol removes imaginaries and jousissance...???

Socratic question first.

What is human? ;-)



\\That's the point, isn't it?

(stroking false socratic beard) Is it?



\\It's a Systems ANALYSES pov. You have a universe. You draw a circle around a part of it, and call it "the system" to be analysed. That doesn't mean that you only look "inside" the encircled system and analyse that part. You must consider what's "outside" the system boundary, and crosses it... "transcends" it. The environment in which the encircled "system" swims.

That is... not meta-thinking. Just ordinary one.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\Where'd you be going... if you on the top of the mountain already?
\\Exploring.
/Yap.
But, that nagging questions again. WHAT and HOW. ;-)
Isn't it more interesting (and productive) to explore with new tools, new realms. ;-)


Doesn't that "change the message"? We shape the tools then the tools shape us.

Scientific method is to introduce/ change one variable at a time, so you so you can learn the specific effect of each. Yes, that could be the approach, provided the tool was the first variable introduced. But then you're learning more about the tool, not the system you wish to study.


\\So did Asimov and Herbert.
/Nay.
I mean on base of science. And not some wishi-washi wishful thinking.


Asimov was a professor of biochemistry @ Boston University. Herbert had no science background. Asimov gave a lecture at the Academy. It's what got me started with SciFi.


\\It's "reality" depends upon the information, and the source. For it includes the communicating/ tranmitting subject's "imaginary" and his "jouissance" and the receivers "imaginary and jousissance", or even a neutral 3rd party "observer's". In other words, each has a slightly different "reality" depending upon the information being communicated. It may be "meant" one way and "misunderstood".
/I take it as answer -- subjective.
But who exactly? Materialist? Idealist? ;-)


Now you're just throwing dust into my eyes. Does it matter? Zizek is a Materialist who worships Hegel AND Marx. Or is Hegel different because he's an "absolute idealist"... like I'm an "absolute marxist"? (and yes, that is also one of my blogs).


\\To account for individual imaginaries and jouissance. A better comm protocol.
/Protocol need to work on the base of some material medium... ;-)


The limbic system isn't material medium? Who knew? You need to read more Rhawn Joseph.



\\But then if a new human comm protocol removes imaginaries and jousissance...???
/Socratic question first.
What is human? ;-)


An animal capable of semiotics.


\\That's the point, isn't it?
/(stroking false socratic beard) Is it?


Ever read Kant's truth dilemna with the murderer? Do you tell the killer the truth (where his intended victim is hiding) or do you lie (and save his intended victim)? So your comm protocol must include a categorical imperative for "truth telling", regardless of morality/ likely consequence.


\\It's a Systems ANALYSES pov. You have a universe. You draw a circle around a part of it, and call it "the system" to be analysed. That doesn't mean that you only look "inside" the encircled system and analyse that part. You must consider what's "outside" the system boundary, and crosses it... "transcends" it. The environment in which the encircled "system" swims.
/That is... not meta-thinking. Just ordinary one.


Depends upon what your systems evaluation criteria are, doesn't it? Like in our college airport analysis, we included things like noise, traffic, pollution, archeological importance, etc. (not just airport and local community increased profitability) as variables to be considered (which were then weighted to quantitize effect in judging outcomes).

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Commensurating the incommensurables. :)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

...I always hated "units". :)

Anonymous said...

\\\\-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...
recapt firat 11 minutes...Social systems are of three types...

Accidentally. A good case study about social systems.

Akira Kurosava's "No regrets for our youth". ;-)

Or... we can dive into Ams culture some more. With "Sweet November"... and don't say that you have had no feeling about it.




\\Doesn't that "change the message"? We shape the tools then the tools shape us.

Everything changes with every second, nano-second, pico-second(?) anyway.

Or... what that Plank timescale are?

Well... my point was -- if one exploring with same tools same ...scape.
Most surely one will come only with same results.

That is as I... in my childhood, was enamoured with airplanes -- flying in the sky, isn't that romantic?
But then, I discovered that in a century of flights... pretty much everything was tryed/explored already.
So, with my miserly resources I would just be able to try THE SAME what others already tryed.

And that is... boring.

Isn't that obvious? And true?




\\Scientific method...

What is scientific method... anyway?




\\Asimov was a professor of biochemistry @ Boston University. Herbert had no science background. Asimov gave a lecture at the Academy. It's what got me started with SciFi.

Ehm???

That resonates with what we "discussed" with Derpy. For me.

About nature of "expertise".

Well, Asimov as "biochemist"... is below any good laborant of today.
With taking into account AMOUNT of development in that sphere since his times...



\\Now you're just throwing dust into my eyes.

You think so? Why?

Do you not believe in systematics?




\\Does it matter? Zizek is a Materialist who worships Hegel AND Marx. Or is Hegel different because he's an "absolute idealist"... like I'm an "absolute marxist"? (and yes, that is also one of my blogs).

I know.

Well. As always. I just testing my hypothesises...

In a hindsight... urbi et orbi... what mean Phylosophy?

Not as individual endevour of this or that (venerated? venerable?) dude.

But as a whole.

That is that structure they devised to stratify among themself.
Not self-naming, of course. One can name oneself whatever he wants.

Like... I saw self-proclaimed "materialist"... who believed in souls. ;-P




Anonymous said...

\\\\But then if a new human comm protocol removes imaginaries and jousissance...???
/Socratic question first.
What is human? ;-)

\\An animal capable of semiotics.


Ok. What an animal then?




\\\\To account for individual imaginaries and jouissance. A better comm protocol.
/Protocol need to work on the base of some material medium... ;-)

\\The limbic system isn't material medium? Who knew? You need to read more Rhawn Joseph.


Our comm protocol still glithing. It seems.

Meaning was, that protocols -- just an informational structures.

They NEED some physical layers to work over.

And... entanglment of that protocol and physical layer -- is inevitable.

Means... discussing anything today, without mentioning/pointing to that entanglment/non-linearity... makes that discussion futile.

Since... meta-thinking. Meta-talking.



\\Ever read Kant's truth dilemna with the murderer? Do you tell the killer the truth (where his intended victim is hiding) or do you lie (and save his intended victim)? So your comm protocol must include a categorical imperative for "truth telling", regardless of morality/ likely consequence.

Real world circumstamces always mangle/eradicate such pure reasoning...

pragmatically speaking.

So... as Russians saying(that is from time of returning to Capitalism, in 90th... there was Taxi in Soviet Mos-Cow... but it was slow, and corrupt, as you could devise yourself... so, people started using their own cars for "taxiing", to grab some rubles... obviously, not all liked/was ready to embrace, such "non-conventional" Taxi... therefor saying) -- do you want Taxi... or being delivered to destination?

So? Do you want Taxi? Or being delivered?



\\Depends upon what your systems evaluation criteria are, doesn't it?

My "eveluation creteria" includes myself and all cultural surrounding into equation.
Meta-thinking!

Well... can be, that it's overly excessive, and will lead me to nowhere... :-(



\\Like in our college airport analysis, we included things like noise, traffic, pollution, archeological importance, etc. (not just airport and local community increased profitability) as variables to be considered (which were then weighted to quantitize effect in judging outcomes)

That is just a bruteforce approach -- big-data so to say.

There need to be a theory (or hypothesis for at least) to discern -- what variable to take, why they (more or less) important.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

/recapt firat 11 minutes...Social systems are of three types...
Accidentally. A good case study about social systems.
Akira Kurosava's "No regrets for our youth". ;-)
Or... we can dive into Ams culture some more. With "Sweet November"... and don't say that you have had no feeling about it.


Never saw either movie. Read wiki recap. I miss the point. Dominance "hurts" feelings, Communality "supports feelings" and reciprocity is the compromised neutral in between both which offers an ironic distance/ escape from them?


\\Doesn't that "change the message"? We shape the tools then the tools shape us.
/Everything changes with every second, nano-second, pico-second(?) anyway.
Or... what that Plank timescale are?
Well... my point was -- if one exploring with same tools same ...scape.
Most surely one will come only with same results.
That is as I... in my childhood, was enamoured with airplanes -- flying in the sky, isn't that romantic?
But then, I discovered that in a century of flights... pretty much everything was tryed/explored already.
So, with my miserly resources I would just be able to try THE SAME what others already tryed.
And that is... boring.
Isn't that obvious? And true?


So you switch tech. I get it. But what if the tech is all BS? remember the show Star Trek, the Next Generation. In first season 1/2 of their adventures played on "holodeck". So what was the point of going to Strange New Worlds? Why build a Starship? The Internet is a "holodeck" tech. I don't want to be the first person to land on a "virtual" moon. It's like decaffeinated coffee. Adventure withour the actual danger of being on an adventure. You get killed, you "play over". You want to practice war/ train with it? Fly real drones with it? Knock yourself out.

Many Greeks, when offered new weapons and machines (like those of Archimedes), resisted them. They turned men into cowards. No longer would Hector and Achilles troll the battlelines of Troy in their chariots offering challenges of individual combat. No longer would columns of soldiers face off in opposing lines on a battlefield. We shape the tools, then the tools shape us.


\\Scientific method...
/What is scientific method... anyway?


Capturing pairs of birds, and placing them in a cage.


\\Asimov was a professor of biochemistry @ Boston University. Herbert had no science background. Asimov gave a lecture at the Academy. It's what got me started with SciFi.
/Ehm???
That resonates with what we "discussed" with Derpy. For me.
About nature of "expertise".
Well, Asimov as "biochemist"... is below any good laborant of today.
With taking into account AMOUNT of development in that sphere since his times...


At least he wouldn't have caught Covid in Wuhan. Remember Crichton's "Andromeda Strain"? So much 'smarter' today... lol!

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\Now you're just throwing dust into my eyes.
You think so? Why?
Do you not believe in systematics?


I turn again to the transcendentalist... Emerson, "Conduct of Life" (On Beauty).
The spiral tendency of vegetation infects education also. Our books approach very slowly the things we most wish to know. What a parade we make of our science, and how far off, and at arm's length, it is from its objects! Our botany is all names, not powers: poets and romancers talk of herbs of grace and healing; but what does the botanist know of the virtues of his weeds?....We should go to the ornithologist with a new feeling, if he could teach us what the social birds say, when they sit in the autumn council, talking together in the trees. The want of sympathy makes his record a dull dictionary. His result is a dead bird. The bird is not in its ounces and inches, but in its relations to Nature; and the skin or skeleton you show me, is no more a heron, than a heap of ashes or a bottle of gases into which his body has been reduced, is Dante or Washington. The naturalist is led from the road by the whole distance of his fancied advance. The boy had juster views when he gazed at the shells on the beach, or the flowers in the meadow, unable to call them by their names, than the man in the pride of his nomenclature. What good is a system of "definitions" Materialist-Idealist? Is there not Yin in the Yang of your "system"? What would your "truth system" be without a protocol that includes "limbic" inputs/ outputs/ transformations?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\Does it matter? Zizek is a Materialist who worships Hegel AND Marx. Or is Hegel different because he's an "absolute idealist"... like I'm an "absolute marxist"? (and yes, that is also one of my blogs).
/I know.
Well. As always. I just testing my hypothesises...
In a hindsight... urbi et orbi... what mean Phylosophy?
Not as individual endevour of this or that (venerated? venerable?) dude.
But as a whole.
That is that structure they devised to stratify among themself.
Not self-naming, of course. One can name oneself whatever he wants.
Like... I saw self-proclaimed "materialist"... who believed in souls. ;-P


The "soul" is the Yin of Idealism in the Yang of Materialism. To Plato (Platonism), the soul was a memory of the absoulte given by G_d.

from Plato, "Meno" (Can virtue be taught?)
SOCRATES: I know, Meno, what you mean; but just see what a tiresome dispute you are introducing. You argue that a man cannot enquire either about that which he knows, or about that which he does not know; for if he knows, he has no need to enquire; and if not, he cannot; for he does not know the very subject about which he is to enquire (Compare Aristot. Post. Anal.).

MENO: Well, Socrates, and is not the argument sound?

SOCRATES: I think not.

MENO: Why not?

SOCRATES: I will tell you why: I have heard from certain wise men and women who spoke of things divine that—

MENO: What did they say?

SOCRATES: They spoke of a glorious truth, as I conceive.

MENO: What was it? and who were they?

SOCRATES: Some of them were priests and priestesses, who had studied how they might be able to give a reason of their profession: there have been poets also, who spoke of these things by inspiration, like Pindar, and many others who were inspired. And they say—mark, now, and see whether their words are true—they say that the soul of man is immortal, and at one time has an end, which is termed dying, and at another time is born again, but is never destroyed. And the moral is, that a man ought to live always in perfect holiness. 'For in the ninth year Persephone sends the souls of those from whom she has received the penalty of ancient crime back again from beneath into the light of the sun above, and these are they who become noble kings and mighty men and great in wisdom and are called saintly heroes in after ages.' The soul, then, as being immortal, and having been born again many times, and having seen all things that exist, whether in this world or in the world below, has knowledge of them all; and it is no wonder that she should be able to call to remembrance all that she ever knew about virtue, and about everything; for as all nature is akin, and the soul has learned all things; there is no difficulty in her eliciting or as men say learning, out of a single recollection all the rest, if a man is strenuous and does not faint; for all enquiry and all learning is but recollection. And therefore we ought not to listen to this sophistical argument about the impossibility of enquiry: for it will make us idle; and is sweet only to the sluggard; but the other saying will make us active and inquisitive. In that confiding, I will gladly enquire with you into the nature of virtue.

MENO: Yes, Socrates; but what do you mean by saying that we do not learn, and that what we call learning is only a process of recollection? Can you teach me how this is?

SOCRATES: I told you, Meno, just now that you were a rogue, and now you ask whether I can teach you, when I am saying that there is no teaching, but only recollection; and thus you imagine that you will involve me in a contradiction.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

As Walter Benjamin pointed out, all history/ contemplation is done in "hind-sight" All thought is trying to produce foresight (Prometheus) from hindsight (Epimetheus) with the "fire" that Prometheus stole from the gods (soul).

Urbi et Orbi... from Rome (holy of holies) to the world... a gift. Some fire stolen from the gods. ala "The Modern Prometheus" (Mary Shelley).

Or if on a more Rousseauian tack... from the corrupt cities, to the rural uncorrupted (natural) countryside. ;)

Anonymous said...

\\I miss the point. Dominance "hurts" feelings, Communality "supports feelings" and reciprocity is the compromised neutral in between both which offers an ironic distance/ escape from them?

Point is... how one can explore social systems... without empaty???

With what insruments?

Dry cynical dissecting?



\\So you switch tech. I get it. But what if the tech is all BS? remember the show Star Trek, the Next Generation. In first season 1/2 of their adventures played on "holodeck". So what was the point of going to Strange New Worlds? Why build a Starship? The Internet is a "holodeck" tech. I don't want to be the first person to land on a "virtual" moon. It's like decaffeinated coffee. Adventure withour the actual danger of being on an adventure. You get killed, you "play over". You want to practice war/ train with it? Fly real drones with it? Knock yourself out.

Well... that is an obstacle Lem pointed at -- civilization instead of developing further and further, just making a cocoon -- like in

""The City and the Stars - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › The_City_and_the_St...
The City and the Stars is a science fiction novel by British writer Arthur C. Clarke, published in 1956. This novel is a complete rewrite of his earlier ...""



\\Many Greeks, when offered new weapons and machines (like those of Archimedes), resisted them.

With all due respect to genius of Archimedes.

His machines was not that good as weapon. Worked just by surprise (and you remember, how it all ended? and how it resonate with our talks too).

Tech to develop need fine ground. And that means special time to spread its wings.

Like it was with Rockets. ;-)




\\At least he wouldn't have caught Covid in Wuhan. Remember Crichton's "Andromeda Strain"? So much 'smarter' today... lol!

General public?




\\ What good is a system of "definitions" Materialist-Idealist?

The same as definition of "borders" of a system. ;-)




\\Is there not Yin in the Yang of your "system"?

If can make it meaningful, that metaphors... why not?

But most of the time -- it's just bogus. 99% of time.



\\What would your "truth system" be without a protocol that includes "limbic" inputs/ outputs/ transformations?

Bool's logic? ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\\\But then if a new human comm protocol removes imaginaries and jousissance...???
/Socratic question first.
What is human? ;-)
\\An animal capable of semiotics.
Ok. What an animal then?


Who do I look like, Linnaeus? KPCOFGS. An artificial definitional system of categorization (ala from Aristotle). Am I a taxonomist now? Use your own (dialectical) one. Take man/ Divide in two Bi-Ped. (Plato/Symposium/Aristophanes speech)


\\\\To account for individual imaginaries and jouissance. A better comm protocol.
/Protocol need to work on the base of some material medium... ;-)


So you have no memories stored as a sequence on a material medium called your the neocortex of your brain? Please, all I need is a probe, an open skull, and I'll 'stimulate" some for you if you are unanesthanatised (visual/auditory/olfactory/touch/taste). And do these not also have attachments to your limbic areas (amagdala, hippocampus, et al?)


\\The limbic system isn't material medium? Who knew? You need to read more Rhawn Joseph.
/Our comm protocol still glithing. It seems.


It's not a glitch. It's a 'feature'.


Meaning was, that protocols -- just an informational structures.
They NEED some physical layers to work over.
And... entanglment of that protocol and physical layer -- is inevitable.
Means... discussing anything today, without mentioning/pointing to that entanglment/non-linearity... makes that discussion futile.
Since... meta-thinking. Meta-talking.


Thats just it, isn't it? AI doesn't have the "limbic" medium essential for giving the machine its' Promethean "fire" (soul). Information w/o meaning or ability to derive meaning (mean=average). AI always divides by zero (Terry Gilliam, "The Zero Theorum"?)


\\Ever read Kant's truth dilemna with the murderer? Do you tell the killer the truth (where his intended victim is hiding) or do you lie (and save his intended victim)? So your comm protocol must include a categorical imperative for "truth telling", regardless of morality/ likely consequence.
/Real world circumstamces always mangle/eradicate such pure reasoning...
pragmatically speaking.
So... as Russians saying(that is from time of returning to Capitalism, in 90th... there was Taxi in Soviet Mos-Cow... but it was slow, and corrupt, as you could devise yourself... so, people started using their own cars for "taxiing", to grab some rubles... obviously, not all liked/was ready to embrace, such "non-conventional" Taxi... therefor saying) -- do you want Taxi... or being delivered to destination?
So? Do you want Taxi? Or being delivered?


Gotta love the "Gig Economy". In Venezuela its' called 'oficialismo'. It's often mistaken for "authority". Language is the castrated world. Government is the castrator of people's power. As Kronos castrated Ouranos.

Now go read Kant's "Critiques" pure reason, practical reason, judgement. Ever see the painting, "<a href='https://farmersletters.blogspot.com/2017/11/saint-lenin.html">Lenin in War-Saw</a>"?

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\Depends upon what your systems evaluation criteria are, doesn't it?
/My "eveluation creteria" includes myself and all cultural surrounding into equation.
Meta-thinking!
Well... can be, that it's overly excessive, and will lead me to nowhere... :-(


Who ever said that there were "good" answers to all problems?


\\Like in our college airport analysis, we included things like noise, traffic, pollution, archeological importance, etc. (not just airport and local community increased profitability) as variables to be considered (which were then weighted to quantitize effect in judging outcomes)
/That is just a bruteforce approach -- big-data so to say.
There need to be a theory (or hypothesis for at least) to discern -- what variable to take, why they (more or less) important.


Did I say it was a perfect solution? Yes you need "values" but they are usually subjective, variable and incommensurable. Objectivity is the pursuit of perfection. Subjective Bias can achieve an average. Democracy, but it will never please everyone.. Today, it seldom pleases even "half".

Anonymous said...

\\Who do I look like, Linnaeus? KPCOFGS. An artificial definitional system of categorization (ala from Aristotle). Am I a taxonomist now?

Do map is like taxonomy? ;-)



\\\\\\To account for individual imaginaries and jouissance. A better comm protocol.
/Protocol need to work on the base of some material medium... ;-)

\\So you have no memories stored as a sequence on a material medium called your the neocortex of your brain?

Dunno where you see opposition here?

Well... we teached by Evolution to not look there -- inside us.



\\It's not a glitch. It's a 'feature'.

Depend on preferences, yeah.



\\Thats just it, isn't it? AI doesn't have the "limbic" medium essential for giving the machine its' Promethean "fire" (soul). Information w/o meaning or ability to derive meaning (mean=average). AI always divides by zero (Terry Gilliam, "The Zero Theorum"?)

Well... it's up to us -- how we'd create that AI to be.

But... that is up to Reality/Evolution -- how it'll survive that ordeal.



\\This failure of the working class as the revolutionary subject is at the very core of the Bolshevik revolution: Lenin’s art was to detect the “rage potential” of the disappointed peasants.

WTF????
That was neither peasants nor mere workers...

That was "men with rifle"... leaded by "close in class" criminals as passionary leaders. That's what Jugashvily/Stalin/Uncle Joe was.




\\The October revolution won due to the slogan “land and peace,” addressed to the vast peasant majority, seizing the short moment of their radical dissatisfaction.

What a manure.:-))))))

"Short moment"??? Do you, or that bullshit writer know what was position of peasants in Old Rusha????

Naaaaah.



\\Who ever said that there were "good" answers to all problems?

What is a problem... word mean, here?

Some stakeholders who define the problem?




\\Did I say it was a perfect solution? Yes you need "values" but they are usually subjective, variable and incommensurable. Objectivity is the pursuit of perfection. Subjective Bias can achieve an average. Democracy, but it will never please everyone.. Today, it seldom pleases even "half".

If you not know where you going... wind will never blow into your back, helpfully.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\I miss the point. Dominance "hurts" feelings, Communality "supports feelings" and reciprocity is the compromised neutral in between both which offers an ironic distance/ escape from them?
/Point is... how one can explore social systems... without empaty???
With what insruments?
Dry cynical dissecting?


Approach from all angles (Four discourse theory). Identify the discourse. Find the position of "truth". (Spock) or just play a "hunch" (Kirk).



\\So you switch tech. I get it. But what if the tech is all BS? remember the show Star Trek, the Next Generation. In first season 1/2 of their adventures played on "holodeck". So what was the point of going to Strange New Worlds? Why build a Starship? The Internet is a "holodeck" tech. I don't want to be the first person to land on a "virtual" moon. It's like decaffeinated coffee. Adventure withour the actual danger of being on an adventure. You get killed, you "play over". You want to practice war/ train with it? Fly real drones with it? Knock yourself out.
Well... that is an obstacle Lem pointed at -- civilization instead of developing further and further, just making a cocoon -- like in
""The City and the Stars - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › The_City_and_the_St...
The City and the Stars is a science fiction novel by British writer Arthur C. Clarke, published in 1956. This novel is a complete rewrite of his earlier ...""


Yap


\\Many Greeks, when offered new weapons and machines (like those of Archimedes), resisted them.
With all due respect to genius of Archimedes.
His machines was not that good as weapon. Worked just by surprise (and you remember, how it all ended? and how it resonate with our talks too).
Tech to develop need fine ground. And that means special time to spread its wings.
Like it was with Rockets. ;-)


...or COVID? Today when the 'experts' 'ef up, they REALLY 'ef up.


\\At least he wouldn't have caught Covid in Wuhan. Remember Crichton's "Andromeda Strain"? So much 'smarter' today... lol!
/General public?


No, the experts. Wuhan wasn't BSL-4 Class, nor did it's dumb researchers follow required biosafety protocols. And even Andromeda escapes the lab (seals fail) in the end. Fortunately in BOTH cases, the virus mutates to become more 'harmless'.


\\ What good is a system of "definitions" Materialist-Idealist?
The same as definition of "borders" of a system. ;-)


touche. But the idealism within materialism lies in the organizational "pattern" of neuronal connections and fluctuating speed of the brain waves stimulating them. It doesn't mean that the memories don't exist.


\\Is there not Yin in the Yang of your "system"?
If can make it meaningful, that metaphors... why not?
But most of the time -- it's just bogus. 99% of time.


Like in gender (socially constructed) vs sex (physically constructed)? Or "race" of humans determined by dnA "sequence/pattern" and not just melanin content of skin.


\\What would your "truth system" be without a protocol that includes "limbic" inputs/ outputs/ transformations?
Bool's logic? ;-)


That's pretty binary... no gray areas.

Anonymous said...

\\That's pretty binary... no gray areas.

Then... fuzzy logic? Modal logic? Female's logic? ;-)



\\Like in gender (socially constructed) vs sex (physically constructed)? Or "race" of humans determined by dnA "sequence/pattern" and not just melanin content of skin.

Was ancient chinese knew much about DNA??? To base their Yin/Yang on.


\\touche. But the idealism within materialism lies in the organizational "pattern" of neuronal connections and fluctuating speed of the brain waves stimulating them. It doesn't mean that the memories don't exist.

Like I have said it...


\\Fortunately in BOTH cases, the virus mutates to become more 'harmless'.

That is not accident. Natural behavior of a virus. Viruses need to spread MORE. That's why strains that do kill often and decisivly -- eleminate itself faster, than it able to spread.

And vice versa -- that strains that do not kill subject, and only use it to multiply -- survive and even can instill its DNA into hosts. And became retro-viruses -- which can be a reason of our, well, everybody's evolution. ;-)



\\Like it was with Rockets. ;-)

\\...or COVID? Today when the 'experts' 'ef up, they REALLY 'ef up.

I feel we talk about different things here.




\\Approach from all angles (Four discourse theory). Identify the discourse. Find the position of "truth". (Spock) or just play a "hunch" (Kirk).

Not enough.

And we are not in a scifi sitcom for it to playout... somehow. Because of pure voluntarism of scriptwriters. :-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\Who do I look like, Linnaeus? KPCOFGS. An artificial definitional system of categorization (ala from Aristotle). Am I a taxonomist now?
Do map is like taxonomy? ;-)


All different forms of Semiotics?


\\\\\\To account for individual imaginaries and jouissance. A better comm protocol.
/Protocol need to work on the base of some material medium... ;-)
\\So you have no memories stored as a sequence on a material medium called your the neocortex of your brain?
/Dunno where you see opposition here?
Well... we teached by Evolution to not look there -- inside us.


Maybe we need synthetic limbic modularized "humantum" computer... like a quantum computer. Or maybe we all just need neuralinks.


\\It's not a glitch. It's a 'feature'.
/Depend on preferences, yeah.



\\Thats just it, isn't it? AI doesn't have the "limbic" medium essential for giving the machine its' Promethean "fire" (soul). Information w/o meaning or ability to derive meaning (mean=average). AI always divides by zero (Terry Gilliam, "The Zero Theorum"?)
/Well... it's up to us -- how we'd create that AI to be.
But... that is up to Reality/Evolution -- how it'll survive that ordeal.



\\This failure of the working class as the revolutionary subject is at the very core of the Bolshevik revolution: Lenin’s art was to detect the “rage potential” of the disappointed peasants.
/WTF????
That was neither peasants nor mere workers...
That was "men with rifle"... leaded by "close in class" criminals as passionary leaders. That's what Jugashvily/Stalin/Uncle Joe was.


Who were Marat/ Robspierre to the French Revolution then? peasants/ working class potato/ potato. Somebody had to accept the "thugs" as newly legitimate and not simply criminals against the establishment. They followed the thugs. They "chose" (the lesser of two weevils).


\\The October revolution won due to the slogan “land and peace,” addressed to the vast peasant majority, seizing the short moment of their radical dissatisfaction.
/What a manure.:-))))))
"Short moment"??? Do you, or that bullshit writer know what was position of peasants in Old Rusha????
Naaaaah.


What do Slovene's know. The Balkans aren't Europe... ;)


\\Who ever said that there were "good" answers to all problems?
What is a problem... word mean, here?
Some stakeholders who define the problem?


Yes, that's the problem. The wrong stakeholders often define the terms of the problem and those of the 'means' for resolving it in manners that actually prevent the problems resolution. Like racism as a problem of "tolerance" and not "injustice" (just-is).


\\Did I say it was a perfect solution? Yes you need "values" but they are usually subjective, variable and incommensurable. Objectivity is the pursuit of perfection. Subjective Bias can achieve an average. Democracy, but it will never please everyone.. Today, it seldom pleases even "half".
/If you not know where you going... wind will never blow into your back, helpfully.


That's no reason to spit into the wind.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\That's pretty binary... no gray areas.
/Then... fuzzy logic? Modal logic? Female's logic? ;-)


Why not illogic? Intuition. Inductive. Reactive.


\\Like in gender (socially constructed) vs sex (physically constructed)? Or "race" of humans determined by dnA "sequence/pattern" and not just melanin content of skin.
/Was ancient chinese knew much about DNA??? To base their Yin/Yang on.


Some semiotics more complex and accurate than others. Einsteinian vs. Newtonian.


\\touche. But the idealism within materialism lies in the organizational "pattern" of neuronal connections and fluctuating speed of the brain waves stimulating them. It doesn't mean that the memories don't exist.
/Like I have said it...


So now if we just had a means of capturing and passing them down... something like DNA.... hmmmmmmm. ;)


\\Fortunately in BOTH cases, the virus mutates to become more 'harmless'.
/That is not accident. Natural behavior of a virus. Viruses need to spread MORE. That's why strains that do kill often and decisivly -- eleminate itself faster, than it able to spread.
And vice versa -- that strains that do not kill subject, and only use it to multiply -- survive and even can instill its DNA into hosts. And became retro-viruses -- which can be a reason of our, well, everybody's evolution. ;-)


Sorry, but I 'evolve' too quickly already. We don't need 'experts' getting stupid and speeding up the process.


\\Like it was with Rockets. ;-)
\\...or COVID? Today when the 'experts' 'ef up, they REALLY 'ef up.
/I feel we talk about different things here.


Didn't rockets also bring Andromeda Strain to Earth? Unintended consequence of new tech... Icarus flying too near the Sun?


\\Approach from all angles (Four discourse theory). Identify the discourse. Find the position of "truth". (Spock) or just play a "hunch" (Kirk).
/Not enough.
And we are not in a scifi sitcom for it to playout... somehow. Because of pure voluntarism of scriptwriters. :-)


American CIA scriptwriters most certainly have written Ukraine's...

Anonymous said...

\\\\Am I a taxonomist now?
\Do map is like taxonomy? ;-)

\\All different forms of Semiotics?

You say.



\\Who were Marat/ Robspierre to the French Revolution then? peasants/ working class potato/ potato. Somebody had to accept the "thugs" as newly legitimate and not simply criminals against the establishment. They followed the thugs. They "chose" (the lesser of two weevils).

There is PERFECT historical example -- in the same country -- Prigojin's "Mutiny" -- SO, HOW much it helped... to that Mr.P... that acceptance of "the "thugs" as newly legitimate and not simply criminals against the establishment"???

In 1917 there was no state power in Old Rusha... that power was laying on the ground, waiting for anybody to grab and rise it...



\\What do Slovene's know. The Balkans aren't Europe... ;)

I for example... know little about Balkans.
They are, different world.


\\Yes, that's the problem.
\\1) When Zizek says the role of the philosopher is to ask the right questions.

Yap.
Only, I do not see it wise -- to listen to doctors who do not use own poisons. ;-)


\\The wrong stakeholders...

Well, is there something like "wrong stakeholders"... under descipline of systems engineering? ;-)


\\ often define the terms of the problem and those of the 'means' for resolving it in manners that actually prevent the problems resolution. Like racism as a problem of "tolerance" and not "injustice" (just-is).

Yeah.


\\That's no reason to spit into the wind.

Like when to know which wind is it? ;-)



\\Why not illogic? Intuition. Inductive. Reactive.

That is just a wirlwind... in a neuro-branches.

Well, random numbers generator also useful. Like throwing a coin.

But the wisest use of it -- it to reveal what your choice is, while that coin still in the air.



\\Some semiotics more complex and accurate than others. Einsteinian vs. Newtonian.

Depends on your goals.

Yawn.


\\So now if we just had a means of capturing and passing them down... something like DNA.... hmmmmmmm. ;)

Books?



\\Sorry, but I 'evolve' too quickly already. We don't need 'experts' getting stupid and speeding up the process.

Hmmm. Well... to prevent it from happening you would need new shiny tech. ;-)




\\Didn't rockets also bring Andromeda Strain to Earth? Unintended consequence of new tech... Icarus flying too near the Sun?

Unintended consequences flying here and there. Over our heads. In Space. And around us. Anyway.

Sitting on you backside meat... would not spare you from em.



\\American CIA scriptwriters most certainly have written Ukraine's...

Your faith in Deep State is remarkably big... for one who openly dispise em. ;-)

Anonymous said...

\\\\All different forms of Semiotics?


How many types of semiotics are there?
What are the three areas in semiotics? Cognitive Semiotics studies how individuals conceptualize meaning by using sign systems. Social and Cultural Semiotics studies how sign systems develop and are used in specific cultures. Visual Semiotics focuses on non-linguistic visual signs in art and design.


?????

Anonymous said...

Go try some first hand sources.

https://gwaramedia.com/en/articles/

Anonymous said...

Especially there -- https://gwaramedia.com/en/factcheck/fakes/

Maybe you'd find some of your prime sources there...

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\Who were Marat/ Robspierre to the French Revolution then? peasants/ working class potato/ potato. Somebody had to accept the "thugs" as newly legitimate and not simply criminals against the establishment. They followed the thugs. They "chose" (the lesser of two weevils).
/There is PERFECT historical example -- in the same country -- Prigojin's "Mutiny" -- SO, HOW much it helped... to that Mr.P... that acceptance of "the "thugs" as newly legitimate and not simply criminals against the establishment"???
In 1917 there was no state power in Old Rusha... that power was laying on the ground, waiting for anybody to grab and rise it...


So pick it up.


\\What do Slovene's know. The Balkans aren't Europe... ;)
/I for example... know little about Balkans.
They are, different world.


Meta. Yes.


\\Yes, that's the problem.
\\1) When Zizek says the role of the philosopher is to ask the right questions.
Yap.
Only, I do not see it wise -- to listen to doctors who do not use own poisons. ;-)


Worse, doctors who tell you that you MUST take poisons. Jowett summary of Plato, "Laws"- As Hesiod says:

'Long and steep is the first half of the way to virtue, But when you have reached the top the rest is easy.'

'Those are excellent words.' Yes; but may I tell you the effect which the preceding discourse has had upon me? I will express my meaning in an address to the lawgiver:—O lawgiver, if you know what we ought to do and say, you can surely tell us;—you are not like the poet, who, as you were just now saying, does not know the effect of his own words. And the poet may reply, that when he sits down on the tripod of the Muses he is not in his right mind, and that being a mere imitator he may be allowed to say all sorts of opposite things, and cannot tell which of them is true. But this licence cannot be allowed to the lawgiver. For example, there are three kinds of funerals; one of them is excessive, another mean, a third moderate, and you say that the last is right. Now if I had a rich wife, and she told me to bury her, and I were to sing of her burial, I should praise the extravagant kind; a poor man would commend a funeral of the meaner sort, and a man of moderate means would prefer a moderate funeral. But you, as legislator, would have to say exactly what you meant by 'moderate.' 'Very true.' And is our lawgiver to have no preamble or interpretation of his laws, never offering a word of advice to his subjects, after the manner of some doctors? For of doctors are there not two kinds? The one gentle and the other rough, doctors who are freemen and learn themselves and teach their pupils scientifically, and doctor's assistants who get their knowledge empirically by attending on their masters? 'Of course there are.' And did you ever observe that the gentlemen doctors practise upon freemen, and that slave doctors confine themselves to slaves? The latter go about the country or wait for the slaves at the dispensaries. They hold no parley with their patients about their diseases or the remedies of them; they practise by the rule of thumb, and give their decrees in the most arbitrary manner. When they have doctored one patient they run off to another, whom they treat with equal assurance, their duty being to relieve the master of the care of his sick slaves. But the other doctor, who practises on freemen, proceeds in quite a different way. He takes counsel with his patient and learns from him, and never does anything until he has persuaded him of what he is doing. He trusts to influence rather than force. Now is not the use of both methods far better than the use of either alone? And both together may be advantageously employed by us in legislation.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\The wrong stakeholders...
/Well, is there something like "wrong stakeholders"... under descipline of systems engineering? ;-)


Like no "skin in the game"? btw- Who has more skin in the game, corporate CEO or small business owner?


\\That's no reason to spit into the wind.
/Like when to know which wind is it? ;-)


Watch the oracle's leaves at Dodona. :) Grab the knot of Kairos' hair as he runs by.


\\Why not illogic? Intuition. Inductive. Reactive.
/That is just a wirlwind... in a neuro-branches.


With no experience behind growth? No "knowledge"


/Well, random numbers generator also useful. Like throwing a coin.
But the wisest use of it -- it to reveal what your choice is, while that coin still in the air.


...and have skin in the game for dealing with consequences of choice.


\\Sorry, but I 'evolve' too quickly already. We don't need 'experts' getting stupid and speeding up the process.
/Hmmm. Well... to prevent it from happening you would need new shiny tech. ;-)


Crystal ball? Oracle?


\\Didn't rockets also bring Andromeda Strain to Earth? Unintended consequence of new tech... Icarus flying too near the Sun?
/Unintended consequences flying here and there. Over our heads. In Space. And around us. Anyway.
Sitting on you backside meat... would not spare you from em.


Only the ones of your own making.


\\American CIA scriptwriters most certainly have written Ukraine's...
/Your faith in Deep State is remarkably big... for one who openly dispise em. ;-)


What good would it be for me to underestimate my enemy?


\\\\All different forms of Semiotics?
/How many types of semiotics are there?
What are the three areas in semiotics? Cognitive Semiotics studies how individuals conceptualize meaning by using sign systems. Social and Cultural Semiotics studies how sign systems develop and are used in specific cultures. Visual Semiotics focuses on non-linguistic visual signs in art and design.
?????


Math - letters - Symbols - formula's- algorithms

Neural networks in brain connecting, storing, arranging them all... bio-encoding for subsequent use/ retrieval.


Go try some first hand sources.
https://gwaramedia.com/en/articles/
Especially there -- https://gwaramedia.com/en/factcheck/fakes/
Maybe you'd find some of your prime sources there...


“Kinzhal”? My prime source (today). I no longer read Jane's.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

... for Byung-Chul Han the “main danger that arises from machine intelligence, is that human thinking will adapt to it and itself become mechanical.” Gómez Dávila tells us that “rather than humanizing technology, modern man prefers to technify man,”...

ie - truth protocols...

Anonymous said...

\\They are, different world.

\\Meta. Yes.

In what way?

They just culturally different.

Do you know all sub-cvultures of USA, for example???



\\Worse, doctors who tell you that you MUST take poisons. Jowett summary of Plato, "Laws"- As Hesiod says:

Yap. Like medieval scrubs... feeding mercury to their patients... to "cure" their intestines. :-))))

"Experts"!



\\Who has more skin in the game, corporate CEO or small business owner?

That's why they are different. ;-)



\\\\That's no reason to spit into the wind.
/Like when to know which wind is it? ;-)

\\Watch the oracle's leaves at Dodona. :) Grab the knot of Kairos' hair as he runs by.

Well... that's only when there is some GOAL in your mind... to which you longing.

Yawn.



\\With no experience behind growth? No "knowledge"

Again. Under what GOAL?



\\...and have skin in the game for dealing with consequences of choice.

Unintended ones? ;-)

Well... that is what Courge for...



\\Crystal ball? Oracle?

If you can envision one. ;-P



\\Only the ones of your own making.

Huh... and accidental tornados do not happen? ;-)



\\What good would it be for me to underestimate my enemy?

"Know your enemy"... it's not about OVERestimation of his abilities.



\\Neural networks in brain connecting, storing, arranging them all... bio-encoding for subsequent use/ retrieval.

Isn't that what audial core do? Habitually.



\\“Kinzhal”? My prime source (today). I no longer read Jane's.

On a scrap dump in Kyiv? ;-P



\\ie - truth protocols...

Again. GOAL.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\They are, different world.
\\Meta. Yes.
In what way?
They just culturally different.
Do you know all sub-cvultures of USA, for example???


Lived under communism, and semi-open to West under Tito [he sold us his Space Program ;)]


\\Worse, doctors who tell you that you MUST take poisons. Jowett summary of Plato, "Laws"- As Hesiod says:
/Yap. Like medieval scrubs... feeding mercury to their patients... to "cure" their intestines. :-))))
"Experts"!



...
Philosophers (like Socrates0 are midwives. They have no "goals" of their own. They help others, with goals, to give birth to new ideas for achieving them.


\\What good would it be for me to underestimate my enemy?
/"Know your enemy"... it's not about OVERestimation of his abilities.


touche.



\\Neural networks in brain connecting, storing, arranging them all... bio-encoding for subsequent use/ retrieval.
/Isn't that what audial core do? Habitually.


Just audial? That's not only for indexing & phonetic-syllabic alphabetization) and language-based sensory inputs. Sound sequences, too. Music.



\\“Kinzhal”? My prime source (today). I no longer read Jane's.
/On a scrap dump in Kyiv? ;-P
\\ie - truth protocols...


Is that where truth goes to die? ;)

Anonymous said...

\\Lived under communism, and semi-open to West under Tito [he sold us his Space Program ;)]

Communism Lite.

They was revered as semi-Westerners or "our West" in USSR.



\\Philosophers (like Socrates0 are midwives. They have no "goals" of their own. They help others, with goals, to give birth to new ideas for achieving them.

Like Aristotle? ;-)



\\Is that where truth goes to die? ;)

Definition of truth depend on GOAL.

If you have none, how it could die -- if it not exist even.

But... being alive -- means having GOAL.

Even if that is "to breath" thing. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\Philosophers (like Socrates0 are midwives. They have no "goals" of their own. They help others, with goals, to give birth to new ideas for achieving them.
/Like Aristotle? ;-)


To tutor Alexander? Exactly.


\\Is that where truth goes to die? ;)
/Definition of truth depend on GOAL.
If you have none, how it could die -- if it not exist even.
But... being alive -- means having GOAL.
Even if that is "to breath" thing. ;-)


Truth has no goal. Only "Will to Power" has "goal".

Nietzsche, WtP 1067 (1885)

And do you know what "the world" is to me? Shall I show it to you in my mirror? This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end; a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise without increase or income; enclosed by "nothingness" as by a boundary; not something blurry or wasted, not something endlessly extended, but set in a definite space as a definite force, and not a sphere that might be "empty" here or there, but rather as force throughout, as a play of forces and waves of forces, at the same time one and many, increasing here and at the same time decreasing there; a sea of forces flowing and rushing together, eternally changing, eternally flooding back, with tremendous years of recurrence, with an ebb and a flood of its forms; out of the simplest forms striving toward the most complex, out of the stillest, most rigid, coldest forms toward the hottest, most turbulent, most self-contradictory, and then again returning home to the simple out of this abundance, out of the play of contradictions back to the joy of concord, still affirming itself in this uniformity of its courses and its years, blessing itself as that which must return eternally, as a becoming that knows no satiety, no disgust, no weariness: this, my Dionysian world of the eternally self-creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voluptuous delight, my "beyond good and evil," without goal, unless the joy of the circle is itself a goal; without will, unless a ring feels good will toward itself--do you want a name for this world? A solution for all its riddles? A light for you, too, you best-concealed, strongest, most intrepid, most midnightly men?-- This world is the will to power--and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power--and nothing besides!

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

The criterion of "truth" is an increase in the FEELING of power.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

:P

Kant, "Observations on the Feeling of the Beautiful and Sublime"

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Schopenhauer, "The World as WILL and Representation"....

Anonymous said...

\\To tutor Alexander? Exactly.

And how wisely was used that teachings?

Only in evolutional sense -- wisdom of Greeks became deceminated into arabs... so later it was able to return back to Europe.


\\Truth has no goal. Only "Will to Power" has "goal".

There is no "truth" which independent from anything.

We are, living beings -- are teleological devices. Our mere existance depend from it.

And we created that notion of "truth", as very important to us... but unexistant for the Universe...



\\The criterion of "truth" is an increase in the FEELING of power.

That... cannot be achived.

Or... you must admire LHC, then. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

\\To tutor Alexander? Exactly.
/And how wisely was used that teachings?
Only in evolutional sense -- wisdom of Greeks became deceminated into arabs... so later it was able to return back to Europe.


...and begin a Renaissance. I'm glad it came back with the 0 from India, and hindu-arabic numbers.


\\Truth has no goal. Only "Will to Power" has "goal".
/There is no "truth" which independent from anything.
We are, living beings -- are teleological devices. Our mere existance depend from it.
And we created that notion of "truth", as very important to us... but unexistant for the Universe...


Whom the gods would destroy they first drive mad... Zeus is still trying to get back at us for that Prometheus stealing his 'fire' thing.


\\The criterion of "truth" is an increase in the FEELING of power.
That... cannot be achived.
Or... you must admire LHC, then. ;-)


The LHC??? :)

Anonymous said...

Large Hadron Collider. ;-)

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

:P

Anonymous said...

\\...and begin a Renaissance. I'm glad it came back with the 0 from India, and hindu-arabic numbers.

\\Prometheus stealing his 'fire' thing.

\\The LHC??? :)

That's... how Evolution works...